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the ubf reconciliation problem 
23rd-Nov-2005 10:55 am
Hi everyone,

I put this post here because the last one seemed to be getting too large. My only thought on ubf/NAE reconciliation is that all the problems of ubf revolve around the leadership. The leadership is made up entirely of dishonest and unethical people. They are into lying, deceiving, diversion of offering money, love of power. This is the state of the leaders' rotten personal character, each and every ubf leader is like this.

The second main leader-centric problem at ubf is that each of the leaders is not qualified to be a church leader. A genuine Christian pastor has to at least go to a Bible college for four years, and complete a well rounded study of the Bible and Christian doctrines. On the other hand, ubf is overrun with people who did nothing but play ubf for many years. None of them can even be considered Bible educated. None of them could survive a four year program at a real Bible college or seminary. The best they have done is to get some mail order diplomas using plagiarized manuscripts.

I think ubf is a cult solely because of the corrupt and unqualified leaders. Because they are corrupt and unqualified, they have no spiritual gifts at their disposal. In turn, they resort to mind control, deception, negative psychology, all kinds of abuse, etc.

Anyway, NAE has not done itself any favors by softening its stance toward the ubf. ubf has not changed. ubf has merely re-arranged the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody.
Comments 
24th-Nov-2005 05:52 am (UTC)
On the other hand, ubf is overrun with people who did nothing but play ubf for many years. None of them can even be considered Bible educated. None of them could survive a four year program at a real Bible college or seminary.

I think this is true. I just checked UBF website and found another world class poor message by Dr. John Jun. Here is the excerpt.


Like David we should live in God’s courts and have spiritual fellowship with God through Bible study, prayer, dedication and praise. We human beings have physical pleasure of eating, drinking or playing sports. There is also mental pleasure through reading good books or listening beautiful music. But these things are all superficial. We can have greater satisfaction through spiritual joy that comes from spiritual fellowship with God...Human fellowship has great limitation and makes us tired. But when we have fellowship with God in the courts of God we can have real rest and true happiness (Matt 11:28).


The meaning of spiritual fellowship is greatly limited here. The author of this world class poor message thinks that the spiritual fellowship with God is: to live in God’s courts, Bible study, prayer, dedication and praise. He also says that eating, drinking or playing sports, reading good books and listening beautiful music and human fellowship are all superficial and not spiritual. Let’s consider reading. Is reading only the Bible spiritual? Is reading Pilgrim’s Progress not spiritual? Is reading City of God not spiritual? Is reading Mr. Samuel Lee’s messages not spiritual? Why then does UBF force its members to memorize them and exactly copy them down in their testimonies? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one reads the great Christian classic, City of God? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one reads a newspaper? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one reads a beautiful philosophical argument?

How about eating? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one drinks a coke? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one eats Sushi? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one eats Sashimi? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one is having a hot coco?

How about playing sports? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one plays soccer? Haven’t you seen soccer players who kneel down to give thanks to God when they succeed in making a goal? Are all those sports figures who are sincere Christians unspiritual because they play sports? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one watches White Sox game?

How about human fellowship? Is it not possible to have spiritual fellowship with God when one is having turkey-eating fellowship with his family? Does one have spiritual fellowship with God when he is having human fellowship only inside UBF? Maybe that could be the hidden and real point of this world class poor message.

In conclusion, eating, drinking or playing sports, reading good books, listening beautiful music and human fellowship are all essential part of having spiritual fellowship with God. In the related passage of the Bible, David devotes almost half of his Psalm to thank God for these things because he knows well that they are all necessary to have spiritual fellowship with God. Having spiritual fellowship is not limited only to living in God’s courts, Bible study, prayer, dedication and praise. Spiritual fellowship with God extends to every aspect of our lives. Having spiritual fellowship with God is never limited to exclusive inside UBF fellowship. Limiting spiritual fellowship only to inside UBF fellowship is unspiritual.
25th-Nov-2005 05:38 pm (UTC) - what is Thanksgiving?
Dear human12,

Thank you for your posting. After reading the John Jun world class lousy message, I have an observation I would like to share. Jun is merely mixing his world class poor ubf ideas into a different background. The American Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday copied from Israel. It has nothing to do with Israel.

The American Thanksgiving was a celebration that God was so good to the Pilgrims, to spare the living from the disease and deprivation that killed so many of those who came with them. The Pilgrims were greatly assisted by an Indian named Squanto, who taught them numerous survival skills in the New World. So the second year they had a bounty and their survival was enhanced. They had a harvest feast and invited Squanto and his relatives. The feast was patterned after the typical English harvest festivals. All European countries had their own harvest festivals, they did not copy Israel per se.

So what is the meaning of the national Thanksgiving Day? I think historically it is a time to remember God who helped the Pilgrims, and to remember our ancestors who risked their lives to found our great nation. The Pilgrims are also very well known for their insistence on religious freedom and self-governance, two ideas that were minority ideas at that time. We can remember them for their great character and their trust in God, even in the face of death. I have never seen anything like this in any ubfleader. Our nation was great without any ubfins ever coming here.

However, the story of the Pilgrims and Thanksgiving is left out of the ubf. I think Jun is simply going thru the motions of claiming that ubf is so relevant and the most important activity of life. I claim ubf is irrelevant at Thanksgiving, and most times of our lives. ubfUSA is a fringe cult group of anti-social, anti-Americans.

A synopsis of Thanksgiving is found here.

http://www.new-life.net/thanks01.htm
29th-Nov-2005 05:41 am (UTC)
ubf has not changed. ubf has merely re-arranged the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Indeed, it's hard to take seriously the claim that "UBF has changed" that is made by 2nd generation members of UBF or the few UBF apologists outside of UBF. This is because no UBF leader that I can recall has publically admitted that "UBF has changed," because that would mean admitting publically that UBF needed to change in specific ways. In 2001-2002, they literally cut off their arm (the UBF split) in public rather than admit that UBF needs change.
29th-Nov-2005 12:25 pm (UTC) - Softened stance?
Nick, what is the news about the NAE? Have they reaccepted UBF as members? Or is the softening due to the suspended status and not a terminated status? Please elaborate.
29th-Nov-2005 06:58 pm (UTC) - Re: Softened stance?
The stance seems to have softened quite a bit. It seems that Mr. Fisk has maintained lots of contact with some ubf leaders, but virutally no contact with any of the 'detractors.' I do not know of anyone who has been contacted recently by Mr. Fisk. I was told that I was supposed to be one of the main persons to get involved with this attempt. I have not heard anything (except a very short answer to a letter I wrote him) in more than eight months.

My observation is that a small group of ubf leaders are putting their best foot forward to try to get back into the NAE. I think it is not because they really care about the NAE or even the ubf. I feel they are doing this to cover up for themselves. There is no mention of any ubfmembers, just a few ubf leaders saying many thigns that NAE may want to hear, and certainly it is all deceptions. ubf is really a group that is centered on the leaders, and has no concern about the membership, or the students it targets. If they are able to get back in, then the leaders of the ubf will take the credit for it. If not, then they will blame others, including NAE and us.
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