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UBF discussions in Russian language 
13th-Jun-2006 11:15 pm
Dilbert
It seems people start to discuss UBF in Russian, too. Is was made aware of a thread at jesuschrist.ru, where somebody wonders why UBF is considered like a normal church when UBF members made UBF propaganda on that forum, and nobody complained about UBF being a cult. From that, a whole discussion thread started, with some ex UBF members and some current members jumping in to defend UBF. I noticed the same patterns we know so well from our old forum. When the ex member pointed out the problems, he was attacked personally. When the ex member asked concrete questions, they were not answered. When he pointed out several concrete events which showed that UBF is a cult, they told him he only remembers the bad things and is not thankful for the good things he experienced. If anybody is interested, I can translate some passages.
Comments 
13th-Jun-2006 11:17 pm (UTC) - good news!
Wow, that is really good to see that the ubf truth is now being displayed in Russian. Maybe they can just translate English language websites, and then add their own stories? The internet is great. Viva Le Internet!! Viva Le Revolucion!!

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14th-Jun-2006 06:51 am (UTC) - Re: good news!
The internet is great. Viva Le Internet!! Viva Le Revolucion!!

Yes, the Internet is for UBF something like letterprint for the Catholic church about 500 years ago.

Of course, the Internet has also it's bad sides, so it's easy to demonize the Internet per se by cults with their black&white logic. Yet cults also use the Internet to gain new recruits, make propaganda, gain credibility.

UBF is doing exactly this now. After long years in which the UBF has been largely ignored by the leaders, now they understand they can also use it. Yes, UBF has changed. They officially added two new strategies to their program, namely "Internet mission" and "business mission." They really take all efforts to have professionally looking web sites now. That's amazing. However, it does not make UBF less cult-like. They rather become more similar to cults like the Moonies.
14th-Jun-2006 01:32 am (UTC)
When he pointed out several concrete events which showed that UBF is a cult, they told him he only remembers the bad things and is not thankful for the good things he experienced

I know that the Moonies are a very dangerous mind controlling cult. I also know that there are a lot of "good" things in the Moonies. Probably there are more "good" things in the Moonies than in UBF. Therefore should I stop calling the Moonies a dangerous cult?

Since Judas Iscariot did "good" thing by helping Jesus be crucified by selling him to the Jewish religious leaders, should we now stop calling him a betrayer and start calling him Saint Judas?

Does a cult organization stop being a cult when it does a lot of "good" things even though it operates on fundamentally false premises? Should we conclude that doing a lot of "good" things is a definite sign of "change" in the fundamentals of a cult organization?

When we investigate an orginization to see if it is a cult, shouldn't we consider its theological fundamentals more than its doing "good" things?
Why do we think that humanism is fundamentally wrong when it does a lot of "good" things? Why do we think that post-modernism is fundamentally wrong when it does a lot of "good" things to others? Is UBF fundamentally sound church because it does a lot of "good" things?
14th-Jun-2006 07:07 am (UTC)
The problem is that UBF members have the idea that good things can "outweigh" the bad things. Because Samuel Lee is virtually a saint in the imagination of UBFers, all the good things he did outweigh anything he did wrongly, including forced abortions.

Of course this also goes along with a wrong theology and a wrong image of God. They believe that you can deal with sin by outweighing it with doing "good" things and mission efforts. It's essentially UBF's underlying idea of "the end justifies the means." They do not believe that sin has to be repented and covered with the blood of Jesus, but covered with other activity and your reputation in the organization. They do not believe that Jesus wanted us to be perfect, both as individual believers and as the church. To any ordinary person, it should be clear that you should care if you see grieveous sin in your style of leadership or the church system, and try to change. But UBF does not care to change.

The ex UBF member (from Kiev) wrote that he got disturbed about many problems in UBF. So he compiled a list with the most irritating things which were going on there, and he asked the leader to speak with him about this list of issues. The leader refused to even look at the list, but answered: "If you don't like how we do it, you can go." So he left. But it shows again that UBF leaders do not even want to know about grievances in their church or their own leadership, not to speak of *changing* anything.
14th-Jun-2006 03:02 pm (UTC)
The leader refused to even look at the list, but answered: "If you don't like how we do it, you can go."

The director of Kiev UBF is Dr. Peter Kim. I found the following letter from Kiev written in Kiev. It seems to be written by Peter Kim himself. In the letter he claims that he found “two fundamental problems of Ukraine.”

http://www.chicagoubf-org.temp.activeserverhosting.com/news/news.asp?doc=kiev.html

“I found two fundamental problems of Ukraine. First, Ukraine does not have a true leader who serves his people as a good shepherd. Second, the people of Ukraine have slave mentality. They do not know how to give or bless others. I believe God would not bless this nation unless they solve these problems.”

The two fundamental problems he found are: no good shepherd in Ukraine and slave mentality of the people of Ukraine. Given that Peter Kim is a phD holder and a director of Kiev UBF, can we conclude that his analysis of the fundamental problems of Ukraine come up to all the titles he holds? Did he carry out a rigorous research to support his conclusion? I don’t think so.

Anyone can go to Goole.com and find out so many good shepherds in Ukraine history. How could Dr. Peter Kim conclude that the present Ukraine does not have any true leader who is a good shepherd for the people of Ukraine? Does he mean that only UBF Korean missionaries are the good shepherds for the people of Ukraine? Dr. Peter Kim doesn’t seem to have sound view of the world around him that should accompany his doctoral degree. The quality of his analysis does not even come up to the human standard expected from a person who holds a doctoral degree let alone spiritual standard. I am starting to think that maybe he got the doctoral degree from UBF Korean Headquarters and not from an accredited educational institution. I don’t think that he even studied Ukraine history for his analysis of the fundamental problems of Ukraine.

Dr. Peter Kim claims that the second fundamental problem of Ukraine is slave mentality because the people of Ukraine “do not know” how to give or bless others. What is he talking about? I think he is lying. This is not an analysis of the fundamental problems of Ukraine people. This is a plain insult to the people of Ukraine. Humanly speaking, he doesn’t even have a basic attitude toward other people. He doesn’t even know how to do research and to write a research.

I can make the same conclusion about the fundamental problem of Korean people: First, Korea does not have a true leader who serves his people as a good shepherd. Second, the people of Korea have slave mentality; they do not know how to give or bless others. Anyone can make the same conclusion about the fundamental problem of any nation. Does it make it a fundamental problem? No. There is a big difference between analyzing a problem and fabricating a problem. Dr. Peter Kim is just fabricating a problem as Dr. Samuel Lee and Dr. Woo Suk Hwang did. This is called boolsheetting with authority. There are so many doctors in Korea who produce nothing but boolsheets. One philosophy professor in Korea lamented that many Korean intellectuals have lost their ability to distinguish sound reasoning from boolsheetting with authority.

Lastly Dr. Peter Kim says that he believes God would not bless Ukraine unless they solve the problems that he found about the people of Ukraine. Since this is a theological argument, we have to ask if this theological claim of Dr. Peter Kim is sound. How did he figure this out? Did he read God’s mind? Dr. Peter Kim is elevating himself as a spiritual authority by claiming that the two fundamental problems are authentic enough that God would not bless Ukraine unless the people of Ukraine take Dr. Peter Kim’s advice and analysis very seriously. Is he saying that he received a special revelation from God as prophets did long time ago? Does he even know the serious implication of what he is talking about? I don’t think he even knows what he is talking about. I think that this is the fundamental limitation of the so-called layman mission work touted so often in Korean churches. Dr. Peter Kim doesn't seem to understand the fundamental problems of his analysis on the fundamental problems of the people of Ukraine.
14th-Jun-2006 04:31 pm (UTC)
Good analysis. You're right in both. The premise is wrong (or so ambiguous that it would be true for any country) and the conclusion (God's blessing dependent on whether there are good leaders or whether people obey good leaders) is even more wrong, but typical for UBF.

Actually, the problem of UBF is that all the members of UBF have slave mentality. They obey and follow their leaders absolutely, let themselves be exploited, and do not think on their own. Shall I conclude that God does not bless UBF for this reason?
14th-Jun-2006 05:06 pm (UTC)
This "slave mentality" thing was actually something that Samuel Lee constantly claimed about the whole former Soviet Union. He did not distinguish between Russia and the Ukraine. Peter Kim should now better. The Ukrainians have a totally different spirit and history than Russians, and if he knew only a little bit about Ukrainian history (e.g. the Cossacks) he would not claim anything like that. Recently, the Orange Revolution showed the whole world that they do not have slave mentality. It was also supported by a lot of churches and church leaders. The leader Yushchenko is a Christian and surely not worse than other politicians in the world. Although he is already so long in the country, Peter Kim does not understand the difference between Ukraine and Russia. He also speaks only Russian, not Ukrainian, and everybody in the center has to speak Russian because of that, although many of them prefer Ukrainian.

Of course, Ukraine has also real spiritual problems, which Peter Kim is overlooking. For example, you can often meet an unhealthy kind of patriotism coupled with antisemitism. You could argue that this is a real reason for God not to bless the Ukraine.
14th-Jun-2006 08:39 pm (UTC)
He also speaks only Russian, not Ukrainian, and everybody in the center has to speak Russian because of that, although many of them prefer Ukrainian.

Many Korean missionaries in Chicago spoke in Korean even though their American sheep were around them. I would appreciate it if foreigners in Korea speak in Korean when I am around them. I would also appreciate it if Americans can clearly know the unique Korean culture from other cultures such as Chinese culture and Japanese culture. From time to time I meet Americans who think that Korean culture is just part of Chinese culture. I know from first hand experience that it is not a pleasant experience. Dr. Peter Kim would feel upset if the people of Ukraine took him as a Chinese or as a Japanese. Dr. Peter Kim should know better what it might be like for the Ukrainian sheep to hear their Korean director speak to them in Russian instead of in Ukrainian. It would be like a Ukrainian sheep speaking to him in Japanese instead of in Korean!
14th-Jun-2006 09:32 pm (UTC)
It is not as strange as if he would speak Japanese in Korean, since Russian is the 2nd language and it is used much in the eastern part of the country. But anyway, Russians often treated the Ukrainians like slaves. Ukrainians suffered a lot under Polish and later Russian serf system. Stalin created an artificial famine in the Ukraine through which 7-10 Million people in the Ukraine died. So somebody who is accusing them of having a slave mentality should not speak Russian with them, the language of their suppressors.
14th-Jun-2006 02:24 pm (UTC) - some good things come out of every cult
This reminds me of my friend who is a Mormon. She told me lots of stories about changed lives - people who left drug abuse or became faithful to their wives because of the influence of the Mormon church. And I'm sure her stories are true. But every Christian still knows it would be crazy to accept, support, or be part of the Mormon church just because of those things. I think it is hard to find an organization that ONLY does evil. Is that how we should judge something? God wants us to be more shrewd and discerning than that.
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