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Marriage, love and mission in UBF 
6th-Aug-2006 04:01 pm
http://board.ubf.or.kr/counsel2.php

There seems to be heated discussion on the Korean UBF open counseling website. The topic is about a person’s feeling toward an opposite sex that could eventually develop into “love”.
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6th-Aug-2006 09:02 pm (UTC)
In the post numbered 1368, a “sheep” asks if this kind of feeling is sin. The sheep asked his/her shepherd about this matter. But the shepherd’s answer only confused the sheep more about this matter. The sheep claims that a lot of UBF girl sheep condemn themselves when they discover that they have this kind of special feeling toward other boy sheep. The sheep also claims that UBF shepherds are trying to control sheep’s feeling rather than helping sheep solve biblically any problems related to this kind of feeling.

In posting 1369, one shepherd responded to the sheep’s question saying that UBF leaders try to control and condemn sheep’s feeling toward opposite sex in an effort to preserve the UBF practice of “marriage by faith”. The shepherd added that trying to control sheep’s feeling to enforce UBF culture is not biblical.

In posting 1372, one of UBF staff shepherd gave an answer to the sheep’s question with three arguments. I think this post is very important since it came from one of official UBF staff shepherds if the author really is who he/she claims to be since then it could be considered an example of the mindset of UBF leadership.

In the first argument, the staff shepherd says that one’s feeling of love toward the opposite sex is acceptable on the condition that the feeling leads to a marriage. But the staff shepherd says that a marriage in UBF should not be based on “feeling” but on God’s sovereignty. But the staff shepherd does not mention anything about what constitute God’s sovereignty over a marriage in UBF.

In the second argument, the staff shepherd claims that UBF wants to raise disciples who can sacrifice “everything” to follow Jesus and to carry out the mission from him. He says that in UBF “mission” is above one’s marriage. He insists that a UBF member should marry for “mission” rather than for satisfying one’s feeling of love.

Thirdly, the staff shepherd agrees that UBF tends to discourage a marriage based on love not for the sake of serving God but for the sake of UBF’s own ministry. But the staff shepherd defends UBF’s position arguing that the unique characteristic of UBF ministry demands a marriage based on “mission” rather than on a marriage based on love. Since every church has her own uniqueness and any practice based on that uniqueness should be justified, UBF marriage should be also justified. So he says that he would never allow any relationship based on love and a marriage based on love in his chapter.

Finally, the staff shepherd says that UBF marriage by faith is not perfect but is good enough to be praised. The staff shepherd gives an example of the merit of UBF marriage by faith. One day one woman asked the staff shepherd to introduce her to a UBF shepherd. She didn’t want to join UBF but nevertheless wanted to marry a man who was trained in UBF because she could trust any man trained under UBF program. The staff shepherd claims that this one example proves how good UBF training is and how good UBF marriage by faith is.
7th-Aug-2006 12:25 am (UTC)
human12, this is a very intersting thread and somewhat historical. On the English-speaking Internet, I don't recall that any UBF member admitted so frankly some of these ideas behind UBF "marriage by faith." Instead, it is often even denied that marriage by faith exists. So it would be helpful if we can document this on our webpages.

Would it be possible for you to provide me with a copy of this discussion thread in Korean, plus a complete translation in English, as exact as possible? I could then publish this on ubf-info.de. You can send this via email to webservant at ubf-info.de (word document or whatever you like).

It is also important to document the name of the website, the date, the name of the UBF spokesperson etc.
7th-Aug-2006 02:21 am (UTC)
I will gladly do it to serve the truth of God.
6th-Aug-2006 09:36 pm (UTC)
In post 1373, a student shepherd responds to the staff shepherd’s three arguments. The student says that man is not robot. God created man with feeling. So trying to control feeling of love that arises in man naturally for the sake of business is wrong. Then the student asks some specific questions regarding the three arguments by the UBF staff shepherd. I will just give an brief translation of the student’s arguments.

First, what do you mean by “obeying God’s sovereignty”? Marriage is basically decided by the two who are getting married. Does it make any sense that a third person, a shepherd, besides the two who are getting married should be involved in making this important decision? There could be some advice or counseling about making this important decision. But if a staff shepherd, a third party, is trying to decide who should marry who, then the shepherd has stepped over the boundary of his/her authority. There is no place in the Bible that says we should marry based on mission rather than on love.

Second, you said the “mission” is the most important in UBF. But who decides “mission” for my life? Does UBF decides what my life mission should be? You said that marriage should be based on mission. But how can you say that one’s life of mission and marriage life would work ok just because two persons have that same “mission”? Don’t you think that one’s life of mission and marriage life would work much better if the marriage is based on love?

Third, you said you would never allow any relationship based on personal feeling or love and a marriage based on love in your chapter. Is this your personal opinion or is this the decision of the whole UBF leadership? If this is the case, then you should make this UBF opinion about marriage very clear from the beginning of your recruitment and training. Why do you recruit students without any mention of these things and only let them know when they are deeply involved in UBF ministry? Don’t you think this is kinda cultic?

Fourth, you said UBF marriage by faith is not perfect but beautiful enough to be preserved. But please do not forget that there are many families in UBF who are going through so many unnecessary hardships because UBF practice of marriage by faith.

In conclusion, I feel so frustrated by your three arguments. I was expecting a more honest discussion regarding the matter of marriage, love and mission in UBF. Don’t think that we are corrupt because we place such a great importance on love in marriage. We love God’s mission as much as you value love in marriage.
7th-Aug-2006 12:17 am (UTC)
These were three very good questions by the student. It seems a new generation of Koreans is raising up that is able to ask the right questions. Good for them, bad for UBF ;-) Very good questions, indeed.
7th-Aug-2006 02:36 am (UTC)
It seems a new generation of Koreans is raising up that is able to ask the right questions.

Yes indeed! It seems that the 5000 years of Korean civilization wasn't just an empty talk! I am so glad that there is a Korean student who can ask the right questions. Compare this student to the English major student who asked a very dumb question to Pastor Kim Jin Hong about truth. I don't think that the current UBF leadership can serve the new generation of Korean students properly with the truth of God.
6th-Aug-2006 09:52 pm (UTC)
In post 1376, a sheep shows the same frustration shown in post 1373. The sheep directs the post toward the UBF staff shepherd. The sheep says that he/she doesn't want to serve UBF but only Jesus. The sheep also mentions that there are many couples who are suffering as a resulf of their UBF marriage by faith.

In post 1377, another person who seems to be a 'sheep' expresses frustration. This person says that he/she cannot trust his/her 1:1 shepherd. His/her shepherd is judgemental about him/her.

In post 1374, a 'young' sheep demands an answer regarding what he/she foudn out about UBF on the internet. The sheep had a discussion with his/her shepherd about a lot of things including marriage. The sheep felt that there was something wrong about what the shepherd said about marriage by faith. So the sheep decided to do some research on UBF and found a lot of negative information about UBF.

In post 1375, a shepherd responds to the post 1374. Basically the shepherd says that it doesn't matter what others say about UBF. What matters most is what the sheep believes about marriage, tithing, etc.. The shepherd encourages the sheep just to follow his/her personal faith.
7th-Aug-2006 04:19 am (UTC)
In post 1375, a shepherd responds to the post 1374. Basically the shepherd says that it doesn't matter what others say about UBF. What matters most is what the sheep believes about marriage, tithing, etc.. The shepherd encourages the sheep just to follow his/her personal faith.

The person's name who wrote the post 1375 is 이현이 (Hyun-Yi Lee?). This person seems to try to defend UBF position. The thesis of this post is: '내'가 성경 말씀대로 사는 것이 중요하니까요 (What matters most is that I should live accroding to the Bible.)

Assuming that 이현이 is a UBF shepherd, the thesis shows the best example of subjectivity prevailent in UBF. Since 이현이 thinks that what matters most is that 이현이 should live accroding to the Bible, what others should say about what 이현이 believes about how 이현이 should live according to the Bible does not matter! So should others say anything negative about how 이현이 lives, 이현이 would consider them Satan!

What 이현이 fails to understand about his/her thesis is this: How could he/she justify that he/she is living according to the Bible? Samuel Lee's theology is that it is ok to violate human rights as long as doing so helps sheep. Could heling sheep justify violating sheep's human rights? Could we say that Samuel Lee lived according to the Bible when he violated sheep's human rights to help them?

Suppose 이현이 believes that enforcing UBF-style marriage by "faith" is to live according to the Bible. How is 이현이 going to justify it since no one, even UBF sheep and many UBF shepherds other than 이현이 do not seem to agree to the UBF claim that UBF-style marriage by "faith" can be discovered in the Bible? Under these circumstances, could 이현이 convince himself/herself that he/she is living according to the Bible except counter-accusing others as agents of Satan?

이현이 doesn't seem to understand that the thesis that what matters most is that 이현이 should live accroding to the Bible presupposes that 이현이 is fully justified to do what 이현이 believes about how 이현이 should live according to the Bible. As it is the case with Samuel Lee's theology, 이현이's thoelogy is too subjective and is filled with too much unqualified presuppositions. So 이현이's thoelogical argument should be discarded as it is not based on sound and rigorous theology. 이현이's thoelogy appeals to one's emotion rather than to sound judgement.
8th-Aug-2006 12:30 am (UTC) - UBF Shepherd(s) Give Contradictory Answers
From the Korean UBF Staff Shepherd in Post 1372:

1. But the staff shepherd says that a marriage in UBF should not be based on “feeling” but on God’s sovereignty.

2. "So he says that he would never allow any relationship based on love and a marriage based on love in his chapter." (From Korean UBF Leader)

From the Korean UBF Staff Shepherd in Post 1375:

In post 1375, a shepherd responds to the post 1374. Basically the shepherd says that it doesn't matter what others say about UBF. What matters most is what the sheep believes about marriage, tithing, etc.. The shepherd encourages the sheep just to follow his/her personal faith.

The third statement contradicts the first two. Were these statements made by the same shepherd? The staff shepherd argues that marriage should not be based on love or feeling, but on God's sovereignty. Then, the shepherd states that the sheep should follow their personal faith. What happened to following God's sovereignty? When defending marriage by faith to the sheep, the shepherd wants the sheep to avoid the personal belief that he/she loves another person and focus on God's sovereignty. When the shepherd wants to discourage the sheep from believing anti-UBF material, the shepherd wants the sheep to go with personal beliefs. The shepherd must have assumed that the sheep believes that UBF is a legitimate Christian church. The conclusion is that regarding marriage the sheep must deny personal beliefs while holding onto personal beliefs when reading anti-UBF material.

UBF's only hope is that members hold onto a personal belief that UBF is a good church. UBF defenders hold this belief well when they state "I never saw any of these alleged abuses" and "those were past mistakes and we've moved on." UBF violates God's sovereignty with every UBF member. Thus, any member who spends significant time praying over God's sovereignty will conclude that UBF is not the place for anyone seeking Christ.
6th-Aug-2006 10:03 pm (UTC) - Work of Satan
I can already guess what the UBF leadership thinks about all the questions and the doubts raised by the UBF sheep and shepherds. It is just the work of Satan who is jealous of the mighty work of God going on in UBF.

Many Korean UBF chapters have just finished their annual Summer Bible conferences. So some sheep and shepherds are tired. There are also new sheep who have shown interest in UBF ministry. That is why Satan is working dilifently to snatch them away from UBF. Whenever there is work of God, there is also work of Satan. This is most likely what the UBF leaders think about the whole situation. I feel sorry for the sheep and the shepherds who still think that the UBF leadership will change their mind through an honest discussion. No they won't. They think you are the agents of Satan.
7th-Aug-2006 01:55 pm (UTC) - same old ubf problem
I think these same questions by sheep and same old answers by ubfins have been going on since the founding of the ubfcult. Now, the best hope seems to be the abundance of information that the ubf marriage by faith has not been a success.

I think that the same questions about ubf marriage have been asked for many years, but the responses by ubfleaders were so severe, even violent, that a discussion was not possible. Now, because of publicity about the real ubf, the ubfleaders cannot use the same amount of brute force and coercion to force the sheep back into line. The leader in the past used to simply say that this is God's way, if you don't accept it then you are out. Now, they have to come up with some semblance of reasoning, and of course it does not meet any standard of Bible justification.




There have been many divorces. There have been so many miserable couples that have stayed together. Even among couples that left ubf together, they are frequently miserable. I attribute this to the fact that incompatible people are forced together, and it does not matter where they are, if they are incompatible, they cannot make each other happy. Then they can say they only find their happiness 'in God' (Then why even bother to get married? Can't they make a leap of faith and live like St. Paul?)

There are so many unhappy children from ubfmarriages. Look at the marriages of elders in Chicago, most of those children have dumped the ubf. These are the ones who should be super-appostles. Also, there are been so few examples of any kind of 'success' thru ubfmarriage. It does not lead to the creation of any kind of 'super-apostle' offspring that ubf implies that it will. And most ubf couples walk around the center with plastic smiles pretending they are happy, when just under the surface they are the most miserable people we ever met.

In the end, ubfmarriage is the ultimate means of control at ubf. Just get the sheep to stay involved long enough to get ubfmarried, and then they are stuck very tightly to ubf. The control is still there, the ubfleaders are just trying to be more and more skillful at covering it up these days.

I warn any new recruits that ubf is about trying to control their whole life, and marriage is where the strongest control is applied, and is meant for the rest of their lives. May God help the new recruits to see thru the deceptions and walk away from ubf with loud complaints and rebuke.
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