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Ultimate Horror 
21st-Dec-2006 08:35 pm
During my stint as a sheep at UBF, I remember shocking my shepherd (and one or two other people within earshot) when we were talking about the Bible.  I mentioned that there were some parts of the Bible that I found excruciatingly dull.  I thought one of them was going to drop dead when I said that.

I have never heard anyone react that way.  Furthermore, I have heard many people, some of them priests and ministers, and some the most devout Christians (in the good sense of the word) I know, agree and say the same thing.

What parts of the Bible do you folks find dull?
24th-Dec-2006 03:23 am (UTC)
Wow! That sounds like a pretty severe response, even for UBF. Maybe that was the character of your ministry. Triton UBF was at a two year college with most of the students form the Chicago suburbs. We only had one very inactive and uninvolved Korean missionary family. So, at least outwardly, things weren't so intense.

Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles were the more difficult books for me to reread.
27th-Dec-2006 05:46 am (UTC)
So, at least outwardly, things weren't so intense.

Were you at the same Triton I was? My ears are still ringing, ten years later, from some of the rebukes I was blindsided with. I think we were plenty intense, especially when a good proportion of Triton's sheep (at least, when I was there) were High School students.
28th-Dec-2006 03:53 am (UTC)
Yes. I remeber your parents, too. You can e-mail me at heb8_812@verizon.net if you want to talk more.
30th-Dec-2006 05:03 pm (UTC)
One year in Chicago UBF, Sam Lee decreed that the entire book of Isaiah would be studied. So, at the Chicago UBF Sunday meeting, the congregation had to read Isaiah "responsively" (presider reads one verse, meeting attendants one verse, etc.). The twist is that we had to read ten chapters at a time! It took something like 20-30 minutes just to read those ten chapters at a time. Then the sermon was largely just a regurgitation of what the congregation just got done reading. I guess there was a positive effect: Lots of people probably decided never to attend a UBF Sunday meeting again. Yes, I still find Isaiah excruciating to read as a result.
1st-Jan-2007 10:40 pm (UTC)
In UBF, you were not allowed to express your true feelings. If you find a portion of the Bible dull or even wrong, you were not allowed to struggle with that openly. I remember how as a sheep I told my shepherd I had read a certain OT book in the Bible but did not really like it. I got a very angry look. Of course, if you believe the Bible is the word of God, then saying it is dull may sound like a kind of blasphemy. But on the other hand, pretending that you like it and it is sweet as honey for you while in reality you still find it dull is much worse in my eyes. We should be allowed to struggle with this openly.

Much worse in UBF was that you were not even allowed to admit that you found a certain message delivered by a UBF Korean dull (though 99% of them are). I remember a Silvester night at UBF where somebody was asked by Kaleb how he liked a certain message delivered by Abraham Lee (the European UBF leader). When the UBF member frankly admitted that he found it boring and that Lee's German pronounciation was horrible, he was heavily rebuked in front of everybody as if he was a terrible unbeliever, though he was just frank. In UBF you quickly learn never to be frank in what you say.

Anyway, I have a big request: Please don't discuss things which question the Bible or God generally on this discussion forum. UBF members may get the impression that leaving UBF means leaving your faith in God or belief in the Biblical inerrancy (in whatever strict sense). This may be true for some dropouts, but not for the majority. These are simply different questions you have to resolve after UBF: Do I still believe in God? Do I still believe in Biblical inerrancy, and what exactly does it mean to me? But these questions are independent from the problem of leaving UBF as authoritarian, spiritually abusing cult. We need to get this message clearly accross: Leaving UBF and leaving God are two completely different things. You faith in God and your membership in UBF are two completely different things. In UBF, these are inseparably linked together - on purpose. That's what it makes so hard for people to leave. If you start discussing believing in God and believing the Bible in general, you will approbe their prejudices that all who leave UBF immediately are on a track of leaving God. So please don't discuss such questions on this forum (or at least not in public) so these two issues do not get mixed up.

For many atheists, the Bible sounds in many parts absurd, offending, ridiculous, dangerous. They believe that this is an intrinsic problem of all religions in general. The teachings and practices of UBF then of course are even more wired for them than ordinary Christianity. There are lots of people and pages who would criticize cults like UBF from a secular or atheistic point of view. However, these views do not help UBF members or are even harmful for them, because they seem to approve to them that UBF is attacked for following Christ. What we need are people who can explain why UBF is an abomination even from a religious, Bible-believing point of view.

Too many people are criticizing UBF because they allegedly "follow the Bible too strictly" - but the opposite is the case. They don't follow the Bible strictly, but they follow their own twisted Confucianist interpretation of the Bible. That's the problem. We should not mix these two problems together, though many dropouts have problems with both UBF and the Bible. But these are still two different problems, not one and the same. This is a very important for me to make clear to the current members.
1st-Jan-2007 11:00 pm (UTC)
One of many passages in the OT I not only found dull, but rather bewildering was the passage where "David and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. He brought their foreskins and presented the full number to the king so that he might become the king's son-in-law." I remember that Kaleb Hong preached about this passage and the whole books of Samuel for weeks in length without ever mentioning Jesus or giving the impression that things like these should be commented or were difficult to read (by contrast, he never preached about the book of Galatians in all my 10 years and as I heared it was actually never preached.) That was one of the times were I really pondered about leaving UBF. But even in the NT there are passages which are difficult for me to accept. Like Rom 13:1-4: "... there is no authority except that which God has established. ... For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. ..." But was this true for the Hitler or Stalin or Hussein authorities? Did they commend those who did good and punish those who did wrong? The opposite was the case! Therefore I am struggling with verses like these. They simply seem to be wrong. I have tried to find solutions how they can be interpreted properly, assuming that not these verses are wrong but my understanding must be wrong and they must be understood differently. but I am not very satisfied with these solutions nor with any other I found in commentaries. There are some helpful books like "Hard sayings in the Bible." The UBF Koreans probably don't find these verses hard. They are accustomed to swallow everything and live with contradictions.

Anyway, as I said I think this is not the place to discuss these difficulties. (Or, we can do it in a non-public thread.)
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