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Further comments 
18th-Jun-2007 03:08 pm
It appears that whenever a person(s) tries to take the place of God or 'usurp' the role of God in a person's life the outcome is ultimately hurt. We see this time and time again in a variety of ministries where this practice has been employed. We must come to understand that the role of moulding and shaping a person lies solely with the Holy Spirit. Only he is wise enough to handle the job. Yes, he will use people and circumstances to get the job done but ultimately it is (he and not a person) who will fulfil the work in you. Being the person he is, he never forces, co-erces or pushes a person into doing anything. Rather being the gentleman he is, he is always patient, kind and caring  and gives people the opportunity to make choices for themselves. He is the great counselor whom Jesus promised before his ascension and he is alive and at work just as powerfully today as in the days of the Apostles. I myself wouldnt trust anybody else with the job!

God is wanting a full restoration of the church (as it  was in the book of Acts). And he wants no-one to miss out. He wants spirit-filled believers who are ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit so as to bring true impact to our families and communities. I pray that you would all find yourself a good spirit filled church where Jesus is preached and where the Spirit is manifested. You are all a powerful weapons of God whom the Lord is wanting to unleash on a community and world desperately in-need of his love. Your knowledge and reverence for the word is admirable but you need the spirit to make it come alive!  Find yourselves a good spirit-filled church and let God unleash you into all that he has in store for you. The best days are ahead!
18th-Jun-2007 05:57 am (UTC)
Thanks calito. You're right - the problem of UBF is that they manipulate people instead of trusting in the Holy Spirit. In UBF, the Holy Spirit is completly redundant, because UBF shepherds do everything the spirit should do - such as convicting people of sins, crushing proud hearts and giving orientation. The problme herein: Since UBF leaders are not God, they do not really know the hearts and real sins of people. Since they are not God, they can only give orientation within the frames of UBF (e.g. they would never tell you to leave UBF or marry somebody outside UBF). Most of all, if God directly is training you and crushing your proud heart, this is a healthy experience. But if any man is doing this, no matter how spiritual, he is really crushing your soul. No man is allowed to do this, to directly interfere into your heart and soul, as UBF leaders try to do. "Training" should always come from God directly, and if you read the Bible, you will only find this kind of training, not Christians training other Christians in the UBFish way.

calito, can you share something about yourself? Have you been in UBF? When posting here, you can choose that your posting will be only visible to "friends", i.e. RSQUBF members, if you feel UBFers and the rest of the world should not read these more private details.
18th-Jun-2007 06:33 am (UTC)
Hey bro,
Used to be some time ago (Auckland chapter, New Zealand) but finished up my involvement following my
graduation from Uni. The chapter i was at wasnt too bad (by comparison
to some of the ones mentioned on the site) and was actually pretty
flexible in terms of the way carried out our ministry. We had a good
cooperative relationship with the other christian groups on campus and
offered a wide variety of ministries (group bible study, prayer
meetings etc) with a focus more on ministering to the students on
campus as opposed to trying to reach goals such as increasing 1:1
bible study numbers etc.

The chapter had some good, talented young missionaries who were
passionate and quite open in every respect. However in saying this
there were some of the issues present such as those mentioned on the
site (stemming from what i believe was the inability of the leaders to
make a full break from the training they had received in Korea which
focussed mainly on the whole concept of shepherding or discipleship).

Eventually (from what i understand) God moved on the hearts of all
involved and a decision was made by the missionaries to discontinue
the fellowship and to integrate into normal churches (this taking
place after i had left). I am still very good friends with a number of
the missionaries, some of whom have since returned to korea, and am
happy to see them all doing well in the various churches in which they
now serve. I myself have been a part of a good pentecostal church for
a number of years now and am excited to see all that God is doing.

I came across your site more by chance than anything else but thought
id stop by and say hi (seeing as i was kind of familiar with the
issues). Anyway hope that you all are able to continue on into the
things of God (despite any past hurts) and can push through into the
great and exciting things that the Spirit has in store for you all.
God is good and his love endures forever! All the best in the future

18th-Jun-2007 06:52 am (UTC)
Thanks for sharing your experience, Karl. I myself have been in UBF for about 10 years in a pretty hardcore UBF chapter in Germany and experienced some extreme cases of spiritual abuse done to me and others. I think I have recovered and can forgive, but strongly feel I need to help others understand the harm of "manipulative discipleship" now. UBF sharpened my mind about the problem.

Good to hear that your UBF chapter has integrated into normal churches. Did this happen in conjunction with the UBF reform movement in the years 2000-2001, or did this happen independently? Did UBF "re-pioneer" Auckland again since then? They did this with many of the German chapters which joined the reform movement.
18th-Jun-2007 08:12 am (UTC)
Um, the ministry finished up in 2001 but whether it had anything to do with the movement you spoke of im not sure. It was around about mid 2000 that a number of the younger missionaries decided to return to korea (which was also about the time when i graduated).
It seems reasonable however to assume that there must have been some consultation with Korea with regards to the ministries discontinuation. Many of the younger missionaries with whom i was (and am) very good friends, now live in korea and although ive kept in contact with them (in fact i visited some of them while in korea for a sports tournament just last year) we havent really spoken much about UBF. Conversations these days tend to center more around families, work, church and other stuff.
I dont think there is a UBF in auckland anymore, however there are plenty of good, healthy christian groups active on campus.
I know that of the 3 missionary families that were based permanently in Auckland, 1 now attends a baptist church and the other 2 attend a korean presbyterian church.
I used to see one of the missionaries around quite regularly (as he lived not too far from where i am) but havent seen him in recent times(I had a particularly good friendship with this missionary mostly due to the fact that he was my arch nemesis on the table tennis table!)
Anyway bro, this is getting long. So ill finish up by saying that i just want to encourage you all that our God is a God of restoration and that all things happen for a reason. We may not be able to see it now but one day we'll understand. We're in good hands (in fact the best!) and just when we think the best is over he surprises us by showing us that the best is still yet to come, and is in fact right around the corner!!
Karl áka calito aka p'rock diddy!'
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