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Dr. Ben's emails 
20th-Jun-2007 09:46 am
Just thought I would share with you all a few emails exchanged between Dr.Ben and myself from a few months ago (click on comments to view them). The 1st paragraph is what I wrote yesterday when I forwarded these emails to many current UBF members.
20th-Jun-2007 03:07 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
email #2)> > > On 3/29/07, amy young > wrote:
> > > Dr. Ben,
> > > Thank you for beginning to address this. However, I do not believe it was adequately or thoroughly dealt with and needs further looking into.
> > > First of all, Jamie read your letter and does not remember you saying just to threaten me with divorce but not actually go through with it. As I wrote originally on rsqubf, you telling Jamie to divorce me was the first step in God beginning to open Jamie's eyes to the serious problems in UBF and the cause of him suddenly changing his mind and deciding to leave UBF with me.
> > > Let's just pretend for a minute that you did not really say Jamie should divorce me but that Jamie should only threaten to divorce me. Either way, this is still horrible and sinful for many reasons. First of all, it doesn't make much difference because it's only 1 step from here to there, from beginning with the threat and then encouraging him the next time to actually proceed with it. Had Jamie decided to stay in UBF when I left, it could have very well followed that he would have "obeyed the spiritual order" and divorced me. Why do I say this? Because leader-ordered divorces were nothing unusual in UBF at that time. Let me give you a few examples of the fact that leaders did order divorces. 1) You can read in the 1976 Open Letter to Samuel Lee how he ordered Paul Lee's wife to divorce him in the name of "shepherd training". 2) Reiner S. did in fact divorce Cynthia (originally of Triton UBF) simply because she wanted to leave UBF, the exact reason why you were talking to Jamie in regards to divorcing me. (Please do a google search under their names and read why Cynthia left and what really happened, which, need I say wasn't line with the false accusations and slander Samuel Lee made up about her and their marriage. By the way, was there any ex-member Samuel Lee didn't slander?) 3) Jamie & I both remember how Yvette Shin was strongly praised and held up as a good example for threatening to divorce Dr.William when he wanted to leave UBF (And we don't remember it being an empty threat either). Yvette threatened, William submitted and stayed in UBF. I can still remember Elena telling me some of the details about it in the room in the basement of the UIC Bible House. Elena talked about how great Yvette was for doing that. She related to me how Yvette told William that if he leaves UBF he's leaving her too because their marriage was based on "marriage by faith in UBF" and that if he leaves UBF there is no longer any more basis to their marriage. (These details are still clear to me. They stick out in my memory because I remember disagreeing with them and being a little in shock that Elena could defend that as something right and biblical.) By the way, Jamie remembers you holding up Yvette as a good example for him to follow on "that night". Regarding Yvette & William, I have a question I would like you to please answer: certain UBF members say I should have submitted to Jamie and stayed in UBF (and I did cry out to God in prayer over this for years); if this is true, then why didn't UBF encourage Yvette to submit to William when he wanted to find another church? I just wanted to point out that UBF chooses to stress the verses about submission when only the husband is very loyal to UBF; when only the wife is very loyal to UBF, leaders find some other verse like 1 Cor 7:20 to distort to get her spouse not to leave UBF.
20th-Jun-2007 03:12 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
(email #2 continued)
> > > Anyway, your point is that you were telling Jamie to deceive me, but not actually follow through on his word. Dr.Ben, I want to encourage you to go back and read what you wrote to me. It is very revealing in that it reflects very well what is going on on a large scale basis in UBF. In a word, it boils down to manipulation (just 1 of the serious problems that needs to be specifically confessed and repented of). You admit using divorce (or at least the threat) as a means to an end. Are you only admitting it in this 1 instance or are you acknowledging, confessing and repenting that it has been a very serious and systematic sin used by UBF leaders to accomplish their agenda? Let me give you some more examples of this wide-spread problem of manipulation as a means to an end in UBF: 1) Around the time of our wedding, it was apparent that Jamie's "sheep" Wei Wong no longer wanted to study Bible in UBF. You said you thought it was because she liked Jamie and that she was angry he was marrying me. You thought you could keep her coming to UBF by having Jamie lie and tell Wei that he really wanted to marry her instead, but he couldn't because he had to obey Samuel Lee as God's servant and marry me instead. As in the situation above, you used manipulation (as well as lying) to try to get someone to stay in UBF. 2) How about the times you, Samuel Lee and Elena said the following to me: "If you leave UBF, God will curse your 2 children" and "The earth will open up and swallow you alive for rebelling against God's servant (Lee)". Do you now recognize this as wrong and sinful and take responsibility for using lies, manipulation, false teachings and fear as the means to the end (keeping people in UBF)? Dr.Ben, I do not say these things to condemn. The Lord is truly a God of grace, mercy, and forgiveness; I want nothing more out of this than to see UBF leaders like yourself truly, honestly come before the Lord, thoroughly allow Him to search your heart, and for you to receive His forgiveness. But until that happens, I and other ex-members cannot sit by idly while others continue to be manipulated, hurt and fed false teachings. It would not be right or loving for us to show no concern for UBF leaders, members and new-comers. 3) How about the times you twisted 1 Cor 7:20 and said that I (as well as others: I have it in your own writing where you say it to someone else) cannot leave UBF because that's where God first called us? 4) How about during the announcement time after the Wednesday fellowship meeting when you said Hazel's sin of missing 1:1 Bible study that week with me was worse than the sin of committing adultery. You justified your teaching of this by saying, "It's worse because adultery is just a sin against another person while missing Bible study is a sin against God." Dr.Ben, first of all how could you even call missing a UBF 1:1 Bible study a sin? where does the Bible teach that? the only way you can get the Bible to say that is by twisting verses and taking them out of context. Secondly, it was obvious what you were really saying between the lines. "Hazel, don't you dare speak about your husband's adultery when your sin is greater". I can tell you so many other examples of false teachings, manipulation, "the ends justify the means" methods used in UBF, but I'm not really convinced that you and other leaders are truly now repenting. Please tell me I'm wrong. Show us by specifically naming and repenting and apologizing for your sins. I'm afraid you don't even see (or deceive yourself) how much you have learned Samuel Lee's ways of manipulating people and twisting the Bible.
20th-Jun-2007 03:14 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
(email #2 continued)
> > > A few more comments regarding your divorce conversation with Jamie:
> > > --In the end, you come to the conclusion: "In this case I would say it was a bad and regrettable risk that I took." No, it was more than a regrettable risk. It was a *sin* that also disqualifies you completely
> > > from being a "Bible teacher" and 1:1 counsellor. I remember how often UBF members used the words "I repent" in their sogams. I don't read the words "I repent" in this apology.
> > > --You also try to excuse yourself by saying this happened toward the end of a 4 hour conversation where Jamie was distressed. But this makes the whole thing even worse, not better. How can you propose that to somebody in such a situation? It also clearly shows how UBF leaders are interfering into marriages for the worse.
> > > --There are many other questions: You asked Jamie whether how I lived was wrong (in a very rhetorical question, since who on earth can say that he is living completely "right"?), and when Jamie agreed you suggested to threaten me with divorce. What you missed was whether you agreed that my life was "wrong", and what exactly was so horribly wrong that I needed to be threatened with divorce? You should answer that question clearly.
> > > By the way, was this the only thing where you have to apologize? Aren't there other things in the context of the letters I wrote on rsqubf? Would you be willing to clear these things up? After my letters became public, UBF leaders slandered me. Since my reputation was damaged that way in UBF, a public rehabilitation of my reputation by UBF leaders is necessary (as well as the numerous others they slandered). So you should not only apologize to me privately, but should openly admit that you told Jamie to divorce me, or at least that you told Jamie to threaten me with divorce.
> > > Dr.Ben, you said in your letter that you love and respect me and Jamie. Current Chicago UBF members have called me over the years and told me how I was publically slandered in UBF as being: mentally ill, base, can't get a job, etc. I've been told by more than 1 current UBFer that you and Ron Ward tried to discredit me by saying I was in UBF for financial gain. If you love and respect me, why did you let others lie and slander me and join in doing so yourself? To quickly refute the ridiculous claim about me being in UBF for financial gain here's my response: if that's true, then why didn't I let Samuel Lee pay off our new ~$16,000 car? (--the purple Corolla: remember Lee kept telling me to bring him the statement so he could pay it off) He offered to pay it off many times-- but I refused to let him. Also, even though I really wanted to leave UBF in 1998, I gave all the money we had in the bank, $500-$600 (beyond tithing of course--it might not seem like much now, but it was to us back then when our income was ~$20,000/yr), as an offering at the August conference (the smaller, local summer conference). Even though I wanted to leave UBF, I still gave all our money because I told myself I was giving it to God and at that time I didn't know at all about all the money corruption problems in UBF. The slander included the statement that I complained when Samuel Lee raised the rent; that is not true. But what is true is that we gave above our tithes and offerings in the collection plate to make up for having paid low rent. I could also tell you account after account of how UBF coerced extra money out of its members (including ourselves), beyond tithes and offerings. But Dr.Ben, I know you experienced and participated in this yourself. But let me know and I'll provide many examples to prove it. If I was about financial gain then why didn't I take up my dad's offer to buy me a house if I left UBF? If I was in UBF for financial gain then why did I spend so so many hours reading the Bible, fishing, preparing Bible study, have a lot of 1:1 Bible studies, etc?
20th-Jun-2007 03:15 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
(email #2 concluded)
> > > Another point regarding loving and respecting me: Surely you wouldn't say you respect me if what I wrote about Lt.Sarah and Damon's adultery were lies. So now I ask you: 1) was I telling the truth? 2) what should any church do when a leader is accused of adultery? should it be covered up? I just want to add that neither I nor Hazel had in mind to publically disgrace them, hence we waited for years to give them time to repent. However, seeing as to how you, Ron Ward and Sarah Barry dealt with it (or should I say failed to deal with it by not loving them enough to help them), I strongly felt like the truth needed to come out because I know Lt.Sarah had (has?) a big part in arranging marriages and that obviously is seriously wrong for someone adulturous and unrepentant, not to mention the false teaching of "marriage by faith".
> > > Dr. Ben, when I thought about you over the years I couldn't understand how you could stay in UBF; I know that you know firsthand of some of the corruption in UBF, like Lt.Sarah's adultery and the coverup. I couldn't reconcile the idea of how you would put your own children's future at risk in such a place. I have prayed for them (as well as Christy and yourself) and will continue to pray for them that they will deeply dive into God's word and see the truth for themselves. I pray you would submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ over your life, spend time alone with Him honestly seeing and confessing your sins, and repenting your wicked ways. Don't be afraid of what people will think of you; fear our Holy God and do what is right and you will be blessed.
> > > Tonight I was reading the book of Titus and thought I would end with a few phrases from it: "encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach- and that for the sake of dishonest gain...always liars.. This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to...the commands of those who reject the truth...In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him...You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine... sound in faith...In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us...Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you...to slander no one."
> > > He Reigns,
> > > Amy Young
20th-Jun-2007 03:17 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
email #3)> > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:01:20 -0500
> > > From: benjamintoh@gmail.com
> > > To: joemattluke@hotmail.com
> > > Subject: God hates divorce
> > >
> > > Hi Amy,
> > > Thank you for your detailed and elaborate response. I did read through your entire email, and this is my spontaneous response below. I perhaps should pray more before responding, as you did by taking some days to respond. But perhaps my immediate response hopefully may be more real and less calculated or measured.
> > > To be honest, I cannot remember some of the things you brought up, and some of the things I did not know, especially things from the past in Korea. This is not an excuse. This is not trying to ignor the past or to not answer the questions and accusations you raised of the sins I or other UBF leaders committed.
> > > Speaking for myself, I know that I am a sinner before God and man. The sins that you personally know that I committed is probably nothing compared with the sins that I know I commit in the secret recesses of my own heart. I don't like my tendency and my default and my inclination to sin (Ge 6:5), and I want to repent of my sins before God, which I cry out to God to help me repent.
> > > As a sinner, I make mistakes. I said I made a mistake when I asked Jamie to threaten you with divorce, which you would rather call a sin. Do I regret it? Yes. Do I repent of doing so (since "repent" seems to be your favorite word that you love to apply to me and to other UBF leaders)? Yes I do repent. But as I had said in the previous paragraph, the sins that I commit in my own heart that nobody else knows about probably demand my more ernest repentance before God.
> > > Speaking for myself again, I believe Ga 6:7. "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." I know that this is true for myself. I have for the most part reaped what I sowed. When I worked hard from 1973 to 1979, I became a doctor in 1978 and was able to come to America in 1980. When I gave my heart to God (Mt 6:33; Dt 6:5), God blessed me, in spite of all my sins. I think you know that God has blessed me, even though you remember very well and in great detail all the sins that I have committed against you and others. I also know that I do not deserve any of God's blessings to me, beginning from my wife who has loved me, even though I am like a pampered and spoilt youngest son and in her words, not considerate or well mannered. Do I deserve such a woman? Absolutely not. But God blessed me when I decided to entrust my marriage to God and (sorry to use these words that seem to rub ex ubf people the wrong way) "marry by faith." If you don't remember what I mean by "marriage by faith," you could look at my original entry on Dr. Armstrong's blog site.
> > > However, when I became complacent in the time of God's grace and blessing, like Jacob who settled down in Succoth, I also reaped the fruit of my complacency, which is primarily a weakening of my personal relationship with God and a lack of peace and joy, and perhaps sinning and manipulating others according to some of the things you brought up. So I want to somehow continue to reap the fruit of faith, and not the fruit of laziness and complacency, manipulation, cohersion, etc.
20th-Jun-2007 03:19 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
(email # 3 continued)
> > > Did Dr. Samuel Lee and other UBF leaders and I sin? I think the answer is obvious. Did they and I sin according to your specific charges of what they and I did? To be really honest, I do not know, even if you insist that I am trying to cover up some sins. So let me say again that I am not claiming ignorance as a cover up of our sins and a refusal to repent (your favorite word). But according to Ga 6:7, I absolutely believe that they will reap what they sowed, including myself and you too.
> > > As some of you have said repeatedly and joyfully in various places, Dr. Lee died in a tragic fire, because God was severely punishing him, and he received his due, and perhaps he was even reaping what he sowed or deserved. I will not comment on this, because only God knows the truth, no matter how convinced you are that you are right. But Paul does say to "Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn " (Ro 12:15). So since you like quoting Bible verses and applying Bible verses that you are convinced that we in UBF violate, then please mourn with us when we mourn the passing of Dr. Lee, no matter how "evil, wicked, unrepentant, manipulative, egotistical, harmful, etc" you think he might be . So if you even remotely have a hint of rejoicing at his "tragic untimely unexpected death," then please also repent. Sorry for using your favorite word!
> > > This is my feeble attempt at responding to your email. It is really not easy to address every single one of your charges and accusations. Let me personally tell you that it is not because I do not want to repent and acknowledge my sins, but simply it is very tedious and time consuming to do so, and further more, as I have said before, you will never be satisfied no matter what I say, just as you were not satisfied at my orginal explanation to you.
> > > My account to you is the exact expression of my intent when I spoke to Jamie. Was it manipulative? Yes. Would I do it again? Very likely No. But I would say that I did so independently and I was not thinking of all the other events that you brought up, such as Yvette Shin, which I knew about, and definitely not the event in Korea in 1976, which I did not know about. I did so independently and on my own accord. Was I trying to keep you in UBF? Yes. Should I have done so? No. Would I try something like this again? Very likely not.
> > > Regarding those in UBF who slandered you and said things about you, I personally do apologize and repent. Should we have done so? No. Would we continue to do so? I think that we would not. At least I know that I would not and have not been doing so for quite some years now. In this regard, I think that I have changed over the years, even if it is hard for you to believe.
> > > Feel free to respond to what you wish. Again, I know that nothing that I can write and say will ever fully satisfy you and others who were hurt by UBF. No matter what I say, you will pick out something that I said, or something someone else said, and demand some kind of apology, acknowlegement and repentance. I hope you realize that if anyone else were to do that to you, I think that you would have a pretty hard time too, unless of course you are sinless. As always I cannot speak for others in UBF, but I can speak for myself.
> > > God bless you and your family and I do mean that.
> > > Ben
20th-Jun-2007 03:21 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
email #4) On 3/29/07, amy young > wrote:
> > Hello again Dr. Ben. You thought I wrote too much to respond to so I'll make this one real short. 1)Was I lying about Lt.Sarah & Damon's adultery? & 2)What should any church and elder like yourself do when 1 of its leaders is accused of adultery?
> > Thanks for your time and attention to address these important matters.
> > Amy
email #5) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:33:22 -0500
> > From: benjamintoh@gmail.com
> > To: joemattluke@hotmail.com
> > Subject: My Biblical answer that will not satisfy you
> >
> > Hi Amy,
> > I'll answer your question, but I will preface it by stating again that you will not be satisfied by any answer that I or anyone else who takes the time gives you. The main reason is because you want justice (which does not have much mercy, even though God's justice always includes mercy), and you want someone's blood, and you want the sinner/adulterer exposed, humiliated, shamed and embarassed publicly like the woman caught in the very act of adultery .
> > This is my answer: Even though you don't believe me or won't believe me, I truly do not know whether or not they did commit adultery. Personally, I also would not confront them, for the simple Biblical reason that Jesus' qualification for one to throw stones at the adulterer is to be without sin. This is why I repeatedly say that all the UBF bashes, accusers, slanderers, condemers speak and act as though they are without sin. Just apply your own unrelenting demand of exposing the sins of UBF on your own personal life and I don't think it will come out to be a very pretty picture , unless of course you are sinless, or unless you think that your sins are very small and minor while the sins of UBF leaders are far greater and worse and far more evil than yours .
> > Nonetheless, if they did commit adultery, then I have no doubt that they would have to live and deal with it before God, and perhaps likely suffer some personal consequences for it, as King David did after commiting adultery with Bathsheba. If they did commit adultery, then they need to find God's mercy and grace and repent and move on. I am not their judge and I will not play the judge. I do not need to know whether they did or did not commit adultery. I need to forgive them if they did and move on. As far as I can tell, even if they did commit adultery in the past, they are not doing so now, and they do not give any hint of doing so now. So I will let the past remain in the past and remain with God and move on. If you want to go after them for their sins of the past, then I hope that God will not go after you for your sins of the past. Maybe you confessed your sins publicly. Maybe some othes confess and repent of their sins privately. Again, I will not play their judge. There is a Judge (who happens to also be loving and forgiving and) who is not stupid and who knows how to deal with sinners, including adulterers, and you and I and Dr. Samuel Lee and UBF .
> > This is the gist of my answer which I know you will not be satisfied with because of the reasons I stated in my first paragraph above. If you don't remember what it is, look at the first paragraph again.
> > May God bless you and your children.
> > Ben
20th-Jun-2007 03:25 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
email #6)
From: joemattluke@hotmail.com
> To: benjamintoh@gmail.com
> Subject: RE: Your UNBiblical answer that will not satisfy the Lord
> Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 06:11:17 -0500
> Dr. Ben,
> I really would be satisfied if you & UBF leaders gave accurate Biblical answers & then put those into practice. You have been a Bible teacher in UBF for what-- 25 years or so, right? And an elder for much of that time. So I shouldn't have to explain to you but I will. You cannot just take a few verses you like (usually without the context) & forget about the rest of the Bible because you don't like what those other verses are telling you to do or if they're difficult to obey.
> --You said I want their blood & for them to be: exposed, humiliated, shamed, embarrassed. First, I'd like to know how you know my motives? And as I have said numerous times before, this is not my motive at all. If that's what Hazel or I were out to do then why didn't we speak out about it for a very long time? Hazel is a very humble, kind, gracious, forgiving person, as you know very well. She didn't want to expose them, but felt forced to when they refused to repent and Lt. Sarah wouldn't stop contacting Damon (See my rsqubf letter for more information, to refresh your memory. Or better yet refer to the letter Hazel wrote in which you and I were cc:ed. You stole my mail/copy of the letter, right?-- isn't that a crime and punishable by law?) Anyway, my point was that Hazel was just trying to protect her marriage and felt forced to do something when they wouldn't stop. How could you blame her for this? wouldn't you have said or done something if someone was destroying your marriage? You said I want to expose, humiliate, shame & embarrass them; actually, Dr.Ben, that's exactly what you did to many in UBF. Jamie and I clearly remember so many times when you freely spoke of the sexually immorality of PT & MM, PT & K, TB (it sounded like you didn't have any real proof w/ him, but you didn't mind freely speculating as if fact), TG & SL, B & A, M& E, D & XXXX, D & XXXXX, etc. {names included in the original email} How come you freely exposed, humiliated, shamed & embarrassed them? I also remember Samuel Lee announcing the same of many (Mark Yang, Mary S., don't remember the name of the Korean man who was made to share it during the Friday meeting, etc). What do you have to say about your (& Lee's) double standard? Also, a long time member of UBF told me recently that you were aware of DS's wife's adultery and another case at NEIU and didn't try to cover these up (I never heard of these before); is this true?
20th-Jun-2007 03:27 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
(email #6 continued)
> Dr.Ben, I don't believe you for a second that you don't know if the adultery actually occurred. You never said that for the 2 years I was still in UBF. Not only did you never try to deny that it happened, you went so far as to blame Hazel for the adultery. And I've got to say that was totally evil. (By the way, how could she have caused it since it began before she married Damon?)
> I just want to pause here a moment and say that I really DON'T like writing about the adultery-- it surely is very embarrassing and humiliating. We hoped UBF leaders would discreetly and lovingly exercise church discipline (other churches have written by-laws how to handle situations like this; what about UBF?). But leaders like you did nothing. I know, I know. As you told me a long time ago-- you had to keep the spiritual order by obeying Sarah Barry who said we had to keep it quiet and stand on Little Sarah's side as the spiritual elder. Let me take a quick minute to say this UBF teaching of "spiritual order" is false and another twising of scripture. So much can be said to refute it, but for now I'll refer to Acts 5. As you know the Bible says the husband is the head and spiritual leader of the wife. But when a spiritual leader does something sinful, others should not agree and go along with it. Sapphira was judged and put to death for obeying the "spiritual order". Acts 5:9, "Peter said to her, 'How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.'" See also Acts 4:19 that explains we are not to go along with people who tell us to do something unbiblical. Galatians chapter 2 is especially good. Even though Peter was following Jesus years before Paul was, Paul broke the "spiritual order" and publicly rebuked Peter to his face. And then there was David; even though he had the highest position in the kingdom, he was rebuked by Nathan. Jesus also had some harsh words for the Pharisees who lorded it over others. See also Matthew 23:8-10 where Jesus says Christians are all equal brothers and sisters, not teachers or fathers/mothers OVER other Christians (Do you still say "Mother Barry"?). See also Isa 2:22, Ps 118:8, Jn 2:24,25. Very many other groups tried "spiritual order" (they call it other things) and abandoned it as unbiblical and acknowledged it resulted in: controlling, manipulating, exclusivity, usurping the Holy Spirit's guidance/taking Jesus' role as mediator, deception, intimidation, abuse, focusing on #s, leaders not being held accountable, leads to other false teachings like "covering", etc. Dr.Ben, would you please take the time to read the amazing article at http:www.livingwateroflife.homestead.com/Discipling1.html
> Your "biblical" answer was: "Personally, I also would not confront them, for the simple Biblical reason that Jesus' qualification for one to throw stones at the adulterer is to be without sin."
> The Bible twisting here is that you equate confrontation with throwing stones. Nobody wants to throw stones. Jesus made perfectly clear that this woman needed to repent and admit her sin (in this case, there was nothing to admit, because she was caught red-handed). Also, the woman was not a spiritual leader and James 3:1 says teachers are to be judged more strictly. Jesus treated the sins of the pharisees who lorded it over others with harsh rebukes. John the Baptist also confronted Herod for his adultery, even though he was not a spiritual leader. And Nathan rebuked King David. Jesus made it also perfectly clear in Mt18:15ff that sin in the church needs to be confronted. This again shows that either you do not know the Bible, or that you use the Bible at will to pick as you like (like a buffet)-- training for sheep and mercy for leaders. You do not correctly handle the word of truth.
20th-Jun-2007 03:30 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
(email #6 continued)
Concerning standards: We apply the same standard to UBF as UBF applies
> to its members. A big part of UBF is having everyone (well, of course Samuel & Grace Lee were exempt) get up there every week and repent their sins before everyone. We were strongly rebuked for sinning when things weren't even sins-- like missing a Wednesday or Friday meeting (Bible twisting again) or not writing a "testimony". Yet serious sins of top leaders are covered up and never dealt with. How backward and twisted is that?
> You said, "I am not their judge". Did you read the article I referred to earlier on Armstrong's blog called "The Cult of Do Not Judge"? It clearly and thoroughly refuted your misunderstanding or twisting of "do not judge". The Bible teaches we shouldn't be hypocritical judges. If you or I are stealing, it is wrong to hypocritically judge someone else who is stealing if we do the same thing. Paul wrote the church should judge those inside (1Cor5&6). This is actually the true meaning of "church discipline".
> I will quote from John MacArthur & Wayne Mack's book "Biblical Counseling":
> When a counselee continues to sin after repeated confrontation, Jesus admonishes us to 'tell it to the church.' At this point the individual is to be publically rebuked, as 2 Thes 3:14 and 1 Tim 5:20 affirm. The local church body should be exhorted to withhold fellowship from that person and to call him or her to repentance. In speaking about the sinning person Paul says, "Do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish [or warn] him as a brother" (2 Thess 3:15). The goal of discipline is not to punish but to promote restoration and reconciliation...The Puritan pastor Richard Baxtor wrote,
> In the case of public offenses, and even of those of a more private nature, when the offender remains impenitent, he must be reproved before all, and again invited to repentance. This is not the less of our duty...It is not only Christ's command to tell the church, but Paul's to 'rebuke before all'...There is no room to doubt whether this be our duty...willful neglect of this duty...by neglecting to use the means which God has appointed for the cure of them...a necessary duty which we cannot conscientiously neglect.
> (back to Mack) "Some might see the process Jesus taught in Matthew 18 as cruel and unloving, but in reality it is an act of kindness. God blesses those who obey His Word (James 1:25), so we need to use whatever means God has provided to help people experience that blessing."
> I also think it's very important to remember some verses from 1 Cor 5: "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans...shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?...I have already passed judgment on the one who did this...hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord...a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough...I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you.'"
20th-Jun-2007 03:31 pm (UTC) - Re: Dr. Ben's emails
(email #6 continued)
> In this case, this was not a private sin of Little Sarah. Because 1) she is one of those responsible for arranging marriages and dealing with church money. Somebody who has been proven untrustworthy in this regard should not be allowed to arrange marriages. Also, if she lacks integrity in her own marriage how can she help others marriages during Bible study? 2) She destroyed the marriage of somebody else, namely Hazel. And according to Mt 5:23-24 she should be reconciled to Hazel.
> Dr.Ben, it was good and right of you to finally apologize for slandering me and for trying to manipulate me to stay in UBF w/ the divorce "threat"; but I want to ask-- did you ever apologize to Hazel for arranging her to marry a violent, drug-abusing, lying alcholic? What does this (and many other divorces) say about "marriage by faith?" I have another question for you: when people asked you about the adultery what did you tell them: that Hazel & I are liars, Damon lied and made it up, you don't if it's true, or what exactly? At the beginning Damon wanted to do the right thing. He confessed, including to Sarah Barry. She punched Damon twice and told him never to speak of it. You really think we made that up? (if we were going to make something up would we ever imagine that?)
> Like many worldly experts, you seem to think encouraging someone to confess the sin of adultery will cause worse damage and that the shame and humiliation would be too difficult to overcome. So I guess that means if you ever commit adultery you won't see it as necessary to confess to your wife and that you can just "repent before God" (not very comforting for Christy). But not confessing damages one's conscience and relationship with God and further damages the relationship with their spouse. James 5 says to confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. Please seriously consider these things.
> Awaiting your biblical answer,
> Amy
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