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Blaming the East 
18th-Aug-2008 08:50 pm
Unfortunately, many ex-UBFers, especially those from the West, tend to project their rightfully negative view of the UBF practices on Korea and on the Confucian countries in general, mainly China where Confucianism takes its roots. Let me suggest that this is as narrow-minded a point of view as the one propagated by the UBF leaders. Theirs is the us-versus-them mentality: if you're not with us, you're against us. Automatically then, as if adhering to the UBF morale they criticize so much, the ex-UBFers are essentially doing the same by saying things like "the Chinese are copycats", "Confucianism lacks inventiveness", "the Chinese regime is not legitimate since it is not a democracy" and the like.

I really hate to have entered a discussion on mostly political and moral issues on China recently, but then again, I did not start making outrightly racist statements like "the Chinese regime is not legitimate" and the like, in the first place. 

Blaming Koreans, Chinese and Confucians proper is probably the easiest way to shift the responsibility for having made one's own mistakes, for one's own inability to deal with the post-exit trauma. However, is it really the best one? All of the ex-UBFers, including my humble self, are the only ones responsible for ones' own lives and their future. I for one won't get down to the level of blaming the not-so-insignificant part of human civilization for my personal problems. 
19th-Aug-2008 04:23 am (UTC) - what is the point?
I didn't follow the previous discussion, which seems to have been partially deleted. I am just wondering what exactly is your point? The victims of cult deception are the only ones to blame for the harm caused to them? What are you saying?

I think that there are eastern cults and there are western cults. The members of this board were victimized by an eastern cult. these cults are misusing the norms and behaviors of eastern cultures, twisting everything to buttress their cult. western cults are misusing western values and teachings to buttress themselves. neither one is better than the other. both are evil.

so, there is no racism problem here, there is an attempt to understand the eastern cults more than the western. IMHO. makes sense?
22nd-Aug-2008 12:47 am (UTC) - Re: what is the point?
Raapje, you wrote:
"Nick, you couldn't have followed the previous discussion because I deliberately erased my own entries out of it. I did this because... well, you ask Mr. Z*** why I did this.

My point was, instead of blaming your own problems on a particular region (like China, Korea etc), get concentrated on the particular cult (UBF) that made your life miserable (and I mean, MY LIFE too). NO, the victims of cult deception are never to be blamed for whatever happened to them, it's the UBF in our case. But what's happening now is many ex-UBF-ers are trying to blame their current situtation on what's happening now in Korea, China and so on. That's just wrong. It's concrete people, living in America, in Russia, in Korea. They are to be held responsible.
Cult mentality has nothing to do with nationality. It's universal, unfortunately it's all-pervasive.
Doing sometihng about that is the most important thing, not blaming nations or cultural mentalities. That's what I mean by personal responsibiloities for ones' lives. NO, no one is responsible for the harm that has been done by the UBF people to them. NO."

Please respect that this forum is not intended for this style of personal attacks, and that we want to protect our identity for several reasons. You're writing with a Nickname, so respect that others do the same.

Concerning your suggestion to Nick, sorry, I cannot read your mind and explain why you deleted all of your postings in the "copycat" thread. Maybe you were embarrassed? Anyway, since my postings were responses to these and make not much sense now in vacuum, I'm going to remove mine as well. As I said, I didn't find that discussion very meaningful anyway, that's why I stopped it.

You claim that many ex UBFers project their negative view of UBF on Eastern countries. I don't believe that is true for most ex UBFers, and I can affirm that it's certainly not true for me. I don't have a negative view of Eastern people, they are people for me just like Western people, good and bad.

It rather seems that you are the one who is projecting some negative views, for whatever reasons.

For instance, if I retract from a discussion that I am tired of and that I think is leading nowhere, you interpret it as I want to "shut your mouth."

Or if I criticize the Chinese government, you call me a racist. Hello? Will I also be an anti-Semite if I criticize the Israeli government?

If I contemplate whether Confucian culture fosters cults or totalist regimes, you conclude that I think *all* Eastern people are cultists or Confucianism is something *essentially* bad.

I made my remarks about the Chinese government only after you had already side-tracked the discussion, it was not the starting point as you suggest.

You claim that I blame "my own problems" on "China and Korea". Where did you get this from anything I posted? Trying to find *explanations* for what has happened is something completely different (and even opposite) to *blaming*. Confucianism is *one* part of the explanation why Samuel Lee had such an easy game in creating his cult, and why UBF has never repented until today. But that does not mean that I'm "blaming" Confucianism or Chinese people in general, or even use them as a "scapegoat" as your fixed idea seems to be (scapegoat for whom? for UBF? or for my "own mistakes in following UBF"?) You're making such a far-fetched and moot point.
22nd-Aug-2008 12:47 am (UTC) - Re: what is the point?
Just to get some things straight:

My first posting was induced by an article that suggested a correlation between China's famousness for copyright infringement and their Confucian culture that fosters a mindset of copying others. Whether there is really a relation can be debated. Copying products is a bit different from copying the group norm and superiors, which is something that was very noticeable for me in UBF. It surely happens in other cults as well, but the question is how much Confucian culture promotes such behavior. Again, this can be debated, and that was the point of my posting. It was not intended as a discussion about China or bashing of Chinese people. Maybe my title was a bit too provocative.

My point is not that UBF, Moonies or regimes like that of Mao or Kim Jong Il are possible only because of the Confucian mindset. Similar cults and regimes existed in non-Confucian cultures. But maybe the Confucian culture fosters the formation and prosperity of such totalist environments to a certain degree, and this is a point that I want to understand. For instance, the Kim Jong Il cult-regime is pretty unique in the world, and the Mao regime also seemed to surpass Hitler and Stalin in its resemblance to cults (I'm not saying in evilness).

My assessment of the Chinese government as "illegitimate" was based on the fact that this government is not democratic and does not heed the human rights and dignity of their own people. For me personally, a government that does not guarantee the basic rights such as freedom of religion, freedom of speech and media etc. and which behaves like the life of a person does have any worth, is not a legitimate government. Maybe you think differently about the Chinese government or the notion of legitimacy of a government, but many Chinese dissidents agree with me (would you call them racists?).

My assessment of the Chinese government as "illegitimate" has also nothing to do with the copyright problems. This is a connection you made, not I.

I didn't say anything about whether Korean or Chinese people in general are bad, or worse than American or German people. They are all just people, good and bad. I know very well that the average Korean is very different from "UBF Koreans" and never claimed anything different. I don't think anybody here seriously believes all Koreans are like UBFers.

I don't even say that all UBF Koreans are bad people, many of them are more like victims of a "cult socialization".

Finally, I do not want to excuse the behavior of UBFers with Korean culture. This is indeed a lame excuse used by UBF apologists and at the same time very offensive for the Korean culture. Maybe, because you live in the Korean culture now, this is what actually offended you, and made you go overboard?
20th-Aug-2008 12:30 am (UTC)
outrightly racist statements like "the Chinese regime is not legitimate"

It sounds like you guys have clashed in the past over these types of issues. I just need to observe that "the Chinese regime is not legitimate" is not a racist statement. It's a political or moral statement. And I wish you could have preserved at least some of your contributions to that conversation with Chris because you made a point that I think really needs to be made to counter UBF's perennial excuse that they're the victims of "cultural misunderstandings"; the point that the behavior of UBF Koreans in the UBF system does not reflect on the character or behavior of "ordinary" Koreans.
20th-Aug-2008 05:34 am (UTC)
Yes, that was exactly my point: UBF Koreans and ordinary Koreans are very different. Of course they are influenced by the same (Confucian, right) culture, but this is no excuse for the UBF evil practices of forced marriages (oh sorry, marriage by faith), family separation (training) and so on. Besides, being stationed on the American or European soil, the UBF people must abide by the rules of the countries they're staying in.

The point I have been stressing repeatedly is that it is dangerous to project one's own negative experience with UBF on the Asians in general and on China and Korea in particular. The statement "Chinese regime is illegitimate" IS racist since the background is: Chinese culture is Confucian-->In teh confucianist environmetn, you're supposed to copy things and people-->copying DVDs and cars is what teh Chinese are doing-->such copying practices are internationally recognized as illegal-->the Chinese regime is illegal. So basically it's like claiming teh whole Confucian culture is illegal, well that's racist as it gets. Even Tiananmen got into this crippled logic somehow: since in Confucianism you're not supposed to challenge the authority, the Chinese government thought it OK to kill the protesterss; killing civilians is illegal; china is illegal. YOu see, one can go on a lot like this referring to common (Western) values and so on.

The truth is, the REAL backgroung behind these rash statements is the inability to cope with one's own trauma caused by UBF, it's the desire to find a scapegoat.

If a UBF person thinks that he's a victim of cultural misunderstandings, then the best thing for him is to learn the local culture before starting to preach (what he thinks is) the Word of God.
22nd-Aug-2008 12:55 am (UTC)
"Yes, that was exactly my point: UBF Koreans and ordinary Koreans are very different. Of course they are influenced by the same (Confucian, right) culture, ..."

Why did you then make such a big fuzz? We all know that and never claimed anything different.

"... but this is no excuse for the UBF evil practices of forced marriages (oh sorry, marriage by faith), family separation (training) and so on."

And where did anybody of us use write or imply anything like that?
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