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8th-Nov-2005 11:52 am
In this post, I said, Sam Lee claims that the reason... I think calling Mr. Samuel Lee "Sam Lee" is not appropriate. Even though he was known in the world as an extreme cult leader and died a cult leader, he was still created in God's own image. This fact grants him the entitlement to human dignity. He preached that human dignity could be violated and he even believed that Jesus did so to help one Samaritan woman. I strongly disagree with him. My personal belief is that human dignity should never be compromised in the name of helping a human being.

I apologize to those who were offended by my calling Mr. Samuel Lee Sam Lee. In all my other postings from now on, I will use Mr. Samuel Lee to refer to the late cult leader. Even though he is known in this world as a cult leader, I believe he is still entiltled to human dignity.
9th-Nov-2005 12:39 am (UTC)
I do not understand waht is so offense about 'Sam Lee.' He chose to change his name to Samuel Lee. Thus, refering to him as Samuel Lee would be appropriate. Personally, I do not beleive it is necessary to call people Mr. or Mrs. We are all equal under Christ, so why not call everyone by their names. I understand that in the world we may be required to give titles to our supervisors or bosses and we call our parents 'Mom' and 'Dad', but among Christians, it is not necessary. Nevertheless, I do not begrudge anyone who wants to refer to anyone with a title. I will refer to the UBF cult founder as Samuel Lee.
9th-Nov-2005 05:18 am (UTC)
Hi, Pecowas. I think your opinion is very interesting and it has some valid point. You are right that we are all equal uder Christ. We are all brothers and sisters. So we should call each other brother or sister. I think that should be very appropriate title(?). We Christians are all brothers and sisters. I think you have a valid point.

What I said in the posting is nothing but purely personal opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with matters of our Christian faith or Christian truth. I think it is just matter of personal taste(?), like I prefer green color to any other color. So out of purely personal preference, I would like to call him that way. But if a leader preaches that it is ok to violate human dignity, I don't think we can say that is purely matter of personal/organizational taste. It has serious implication to the matters of our Christian truth.
9th-Nov-2005 03:32 pm (UTC)
I don't like calling him Sam Lee either, but for different reasons. First, Samuel is a Biblical name, but Samuel Lee was an un-Biblical man, a man who mocked the Bible and Biblical truth, hurt and abused many in the name of the Bible, and even made gain in terms of money with his spiritual position. So he does not deserve the name Samuel. Much less the affectionate form "Sam". I would call a friend like that, but not a cult leader. I would rather call him with his real name, Chang-Woo Lee (or Ee). He behaved much more like a Confucian Korean than a Christian (and he was even a shame for Confucianists). Mr. Lee liked to be called "Dr.", but his titles were bought from a Korean university for money, and a degree mill in the US (led by a Korean). A "Dr." in theology requires at least, for instance, knowing Greek and Hebrew. Even a master in theology is required to learn that. But Mr. Lee never even cared to learn the Biblical languages. For me, he is just Mr. Chong-Woo Lee, the cult leader. And speaking about dignity, he never cared about the dignity of any of the persons he abused with absurd training methods like red pepper in the eyes, ice water, base ball beating, standing in underwear etc.
9th-Nov-2005 03:38 pm (UTC)
I think UBF is a group of overconsciencous people led by leaders without conscience who are exploiting just that. Your tactfulness and consideration shows me that again. I remember how a German UBF leader gave one of his members the name "Nobody" as a training name. Everyone had to call him "Nobody". What about dignity here? The Kiev leader gave a woman the name "Bulldozer". UBF plays a lot with titles and names.

There's a good article here about "Acts of Covert-Aggression vs. Covert-Aggressive Personalities":

This article explains how the "symbiosis" between overconscious members and unconscionable leaders work in authoritarian, cult-like groups.

Let me quote one passage:

"Guilt-tripping – One thing that aggressive personalities know well is that other types of persons have very different consciences than they do. Manipulators are often skilled at using what they know to be the greater conscientiousness of their victims as a means of keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious, and submissive position. The more conscientious the potential victim, the more effective guilt is as a weapon. Aggressive personalities of all types use guilt-tripping so frequently and effectively as a manipulative tactic, that I believe it illustrates how fundamentally different in character they are compared to other (especially neurotic) personalities. All a manipulator has to do is suggest to the conscientious person that they don't care enough, are too selfish, etc., and that person immediately starts to feel bad. On the contrary, a conscientious person might try until they're blue in the face to get a manipulator (or any other aggressive personality) to feel badly about a hurtful behavior, acknowledge responsibility, or admit wrongdoing, to absolutely no avail."
9th-Nov-2005 06:58 pm (UTC)
I remember how a German UBF leader gave one of his members the name "Nobody" as a training name. Everyone had to call him "Nobody". What about dignity here? The Kiev leader gave a woman the name "Bulldozer". UBF plays a lot with titles and names.

Calling a person's name can be no more a casual thing if the act of calling the person's name is intended to offend him. In this case we cannot say, "I prefer to call him such and such because it is my personal or our organizational taste." For example, everyone decides call someone "Nobody" or "Bulldozer" there must be a good reason for it, good enough to compersate the damage/harm that the act of calling the person with such a name. Certainly, "Nobody" or "Bulldozer is not very pretty name.

God called Abram Abraham. He alse called Jacob Israel. In both cases, the names are all pretty(?) and have very significant spiritual meanings. Obviously God didn't use the names to offend the persons. However we cannot say that a church leader can call a person with any name he feels like to use because God did the call some people with different names. In all cases where a person was called with a different name in the Bible, it was not a matter of personal/organizational taste. Just because it is in the Bible, that doesn't mean it can be applied to real life without any precautions. Certainly God's calling Abram Abraham is very much different from UBF's calling a person "Nobody" or "Bulldozer". Moreover it is very wrong to accuse a person for being "humanistic" or "unspiritual" or "rebellious" when the person refuses to be called with the name the leader wants to use.
9th-Nov-2005 08:38 pm (UTC) - Call what?
Moreover it is very wrong to accuse a person for being "humanistic" or "unspiritual" or "rebellious" when the person refuses to be called with the name the leader wants to use.

It's their little bogus fairytale world. "Humanistic" doesn't mean what it means in UBF, it's merely a derogatory term for anything that conflicts the UBF worldview of absolute authority and obedience.

And in the end, I'd rather have UBF call me whatever they please than bow down to their idol and sacrifice my conscience to please some bully trying to exert power over my personality.
9th-Nov-2005 11:32 pm (UTC) - Re: Call what?
"Humanistic" doesn't mean what it means in UBF, it's merely a derogatory term for anything that conflicts the UBF worldview of absolute authority and obedience."

That is so true. Another good example of UBF language. I think there should be a ubf dictionary of terms so that you can compare their meaning to the true meaning. I know much has already been shared in past posts; but it would be good to have one document with that info.
10th-Nov-2005 05:06 am (UTC) - Re: Call what?
FYI: I mentioned the "ubf dictionary" only as a point of reference. It was not as though I did not understand the misuse of words in UBF. Sorry if I gave that impression. I sometimes think wrong conclusions are made from some of my comments. If any questions regarding my comments, please do not hesitate to ask.
9th-Nov-2005 11:13 pm (UTC)
Certainly God's calling Abram Abraham is very much different from UBF's calling a person "Nobody" or "Bulldozer".

Exactly. Also note how God carefully respected Abrahams old name and personality. He did not brush it completely away and replaced it by something completely different, but he kid of "perfected" his name, giving him a higher meaning. He was "Abram", and now "Abraham". Same with "Sarah" who was "Sarai." He only changed one letter. (Similar: Saul and Paul). Peter was given a new name, but the name "Peter" did not completely replace his old name "Simon". He was sometimes called "Simon Peter" together. And in the famous passage loved by UBF "feed my lambs", Jesus called him "Simon" again, showing him his love and affection. He loved Peter as he was - Simon the fisherman. He did not want to break him with his past. Peter never neglected his family like UBFers do. He cared for his wife's mother (Mk 1:30) and he did not neglect his wife even during his mission journeys (1Cor 9:5).
9th-Nov-2005 07:22 pm (UTC) - Proper perspective
Thanks for that analysis and the article. I can relate to it so well, particularly the name changing and guilt tripping. This would have been helpful prior to or while in ubf; but now that I am out, it is helpful to see the the process I went through and gain proper perspective. It is also good to share with others.

As for the proper name for Mr. Lee, calling him by his proper birth given name Chang Woo Lee (unless it was ever legally changed to Samuel) is certainly the most proper. It will be on both his birth and death certificates. Samuel Lee was his UBF name. I know I had a hard time to stop calling a former shepherd by his UBF name when he left; and when I got out, I had a hard time getting former members to stop calling me by my UBF name. I actually never knew Samuel Lee's real name until I came upon the info. on the web. Even now, because he is known worldwide with his UBF name of Samuel Lee, it does not seem inappropriate to use either name while referring to him in a context like this website.

As for titles, the title of Dr. was not proper because it was not really valid. As for Mr., this is a title suitable for any male. But, it is unnecessary in this context. It would be proper for me to call Joe Chung, Dr. Joseph Chung but I just call him Joe and he he has never indicated to me that he was offended by that, yet I have deep respect for him. I have deep respect for my pastors, yet they do not even use the title pastor in front of their name. They refer to themselves as my brothers in Christ.
9th-Nov-2005 08:33 pm (UTC) - Mister Lee
I would say simply, as was noted by Chris:

in the Asian languages, you have various levels of intimacy already included in the verb-forms you use in a conversation. In the English language, there is no such thing.

"Sam Lee" is a very close acquaintance.
"Samuel Lee" is someone whom I know.
"Mister Lee" is someone whom I have dealt with in my life.
"Mister Samuel Lee" is probably the most formal, as such, the least affectionate way in which you could refer to a person of that name. This kind of address would be used in legal document, for instance. It contains no level of affection and ist about as intimate as a concrete slate. It's the politest way of showing disrespect without showing disrespect, I would say.

It depends on what you want to convey. When I call him "Mr. Samuel Lee", I purposefully cut anything that might personally tie me to that person, not even a business relation or whatever.

That may just be my understanding, but it reminds me of the children's saying "You have a second name so you know when you're in trouble."
In a formal address, the regular "first name" is that "second name", because otherwise "Mister" is enough to convey the relationship.

Now, this is just my own understanding of language, and as such, subjective.

9th-Nov-2005 09:20 pm (UTC) - Re: Mister Lee
You are right. Having proper understanding of language is important and you helped put that into perspective. Thanks.
9th-Nov-2005 09:09 pm (UTC) - Re: Proper perspective
Addendum: Not that I even need to say this, but I certainly do not have respect for Samuel Lee, the cult leader. While he may deserve human dignity, though he did not give it to others, he does not deserve respect. Respect is earned.
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