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John Jun's poor message 
4th-Dec-2005 07:52 pm
John Jun’s questionable interpretation

How did Jesus look at this? Look at verses 2 and 3. "Jesus answered, 'Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.'" Jesus answered that those Galileans received punishment because of their sins. At the same time, he denied that those who did not receive the punishment were less sinners. In fact, he told them that unless they repented, they too would all perish. Jesus said that this is God's warning and a yellow card to all people on earth.
Comments 
5th-Dec-2005 01:55 am (UTC)
This is an excerpt from the message on Luke 13:1-5. Just based on the passage, it is not clear if Jesus is really saying that those Galileans received punishment because of their sins. What seems to be very clear from the passage is that Jesus is telling us that we will all perish unless we repent. But I don’t see clearly if he is telling that those Galileans received punishment. John Jun seems to be confused here. He seems to understand that Jesus is saying that we will also perish unless we repent. From this, he seems to make another conclusion that those Galileans who died tragically received punishment for sin. This is the same logical error found in Mr. Samuel Lee’s reasoning. If Jun’s interpretation is correct, then Mr. Lee also received God’s punishement for his sin because he died tragically like those Galileans. But I don’t think this is what he wants to say.

It is very clear from the Bible that we perish unless we repent. But does the Bible say anyone who suffers greatly or dies tragically like those Galileans is punished for his sin? For example, is John the Baptist punished for his sin because he was beheaded? We see three deaths in Golgotha: innocent death, repentant death and unrepentant death. We cannot apply John Jun’s interpretation to all three deaths. It can be applied only to the unrepentant death even though his interpretation can be perfectly well applied to Mr. Lee’s death.

John Jun’s interpretation is not spiritually responsible. His interpretation is not careful enough to take into account very important spiritual principle found in the Bible. If we go by his interpretation, those who are suffering for Jesus and his Gospel also fall into the same fate of those who suffer because God is punishing them for their sin. Therefore John Jun’s interpretation is spiritually very irresponsible. Since John the Baptist died tragically, it is possible that a servant of God die tragically just like unrepentant sinner. So a tragic death alone cannot tell us if the person was punished for his sin. But Mr. Lee’s case is clearly God’s punishment.

What Jesus is saying in the passage is that Jun will also perish like Mr. Lee unless he repents. We will also perish like Mr. Lee unless we repent. But I am not sure if Jesus is saying that those Galileans received punishment for their sin in the passage. I think Mr. Lee would give the same comment on Jun’s message as I made here.

Mr. Lee’s evaluation of John Jun:

Since I left Korean UBF in June 1977, Dr. John Jun took over my position. In the past, always one-to-one was sternly emphasized and discipleship training kept on. But since he took over my position, he directed UBF according to his character. He has never given anybody Biblical divine discipline except for his wife. As a result, in Korean UBF Biblical divine discipline was gone. As for the Bible study, he always made a topic Bible study whenever he had a staff meeting or staff conference. As a result, his authority and his spiritual leadership has been weakened. On the other hand, he does not like to write. So he never wrote me a report. As a result, the mutual communication or relationship was distanced. The same is true among Korean staff members. Dr. Jun is very gentle humanly. But he is very fixed spiritually. So in the conversations between he and Korean staff members, they didn’t communicate.

5th-Dec-2005 04:33 pm (UTC) - Jun and "divine discipline"
Mr. Lee’s evaluation of John Jun:



I suppose the business about no "Biblical divine discipline" was Sam Lee blaming John Jun for not keeping Korean UBF leaders more in line prior to the 2000-2001 reform movement, though it was Lee himself who created most of the issues that led to that movement.

In spite of the claimed lack of "Biblical divine discipline" (*) from Jun in Korea, there were scandals involving leaders, abusive "training" like "dead dog" training, forced abortions, the draining of members' pockets to benefit the leaders, all the problems associated with UBF and, unfortunately, other Korean churches.

But Jun is not Lee, just a devotee of Lee. I guess he's someone who would rather "outsource" his "divine discipline" to someone like P. Chang, sending children and adults to Bonn.

(*) As if a man claiming the right to dispense "divine" discipline could be called "Biblical."
5th-Dec-2005 03:48 am (UTC) - Jun's remedial interpretation, but Lee's theology
Jun: "Jesus answered that those Galileans received punishment because of their sins."

Geez, what seminary did Jun go to? Oh yeah, he didn't. I guess his theology is maybe a mix of Sam Lee and Yonggi Cho.

The thing is that though this is Jun's remedial interpretation, it's consistent with Lee's often-expressed aberrant theology of suffering and punishment.
5th-Dec-2005 04:23 am (UTC) - Re: Jun's remedial interpretation, but Lee's theology
Most cult leaders in their messages focus on what is not very clear in Bible passage and put in their own interpretation on it. There are many passages in the Bible that are not clearly revealed to us. The cult leaders claim that they have crystal clear interpretations for these. There must be reason why these passages are not clearly revealed to us. In the meantime what we should do is that we just focus on what is very clearly revealed to us. We have to beware of any interpretations on these not so clear passages. Jun doesn't seem to have the basic attitude as a messenger. A messenger should never go beyond what is clearly revealed in the Bible.

Just based on the passage, it is not clear if Jesus really says that those people were punished. If anyone has any background info, please post any commnent on it.
5th-Dec-2005 01:14 pm (UTC)
Here is Matthew Henry's explanation of the passage, taken from http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC42013.HTM. It goes in line what you have written. You should note that Matthew Henry is highly recognized in UBF, though UBF's interpretations often are diametrically opposite. They have probably not really read his commentaries. But the same is true for nearly all protestant ancestor like Luther. UBF claims to follow their footsteps, but nothing could be farer from the truth.

"2. He cautioned his hearers not to make an ill use of these and similar events, nor take occasion thence to censure great sufferers, as if they were therefore to be accounted great sinners: Suppose ye that these Galileans, who were slain as they were sacrificing, were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you nay, v. 2, 3. Perhaps they that told him the story of the Galileans were Jews, and were glad of any thing that furnished them with matter of reflection upon the Galileans, and therefore Christ retorted upon them the story of the men of Jerusalem, that came to an untimely end; for, with what measure of that kind we mete, it shall be measured to us again. "Now suppose ye that those eighteen who met with their death from the tower of Siloam, while perhaps they were expecting their cure from the pool of Siloam, were debtors to divine justice above all men that dwelt at Jerusalem? I tell you nay." Whether it make for us or against us, we must abide by this rule, that we cannot judge of men's sins by their sufferings in this world; for many are thrown into the furnace as gold to be purified, not as dross and chaff to be consumed. We must therefore not be harsh in our censures of those that are afflicted more than their neighbours, as Job's friends were in their censures of him, lest we condemn the generation of the righteous, Ps. lxxii. 14. If we will be judging, we have enough to do to judge ourselves; nor indeed can we know love or hatred by all that is before us, because all things come alike to all, Eccl. ix. 1, 2. And we might as justly conclude that the oppressors, and Pilate among the rest, on whose side are power and success, are the greatest saints, as that the oppressed, and those Galileans among the rest, who are all in tears and have no comforter, no, not the priests and Levites that attended the altar, are the greatest sinners. Let us, in our censures of others, do as we would be done by; for as we do we shall be done by: Judge not, that ye be not judged, Matt. vii. 1."

By the way, I would even go one step further. Jesus did not leave the question open whether these Galileans were worse sinners than others and thus received punishment. He answered the question clearly: "I tell you, no!" I believe that he rejects the whole idea; that they were *worse* sinners (everybody is a sinner) and the interpretatin that they received punishment. But Jun draws the opposite conclusion. The first thing he says is that they received punishment and you are completely right in pointing out that this is his own invention that goes contrary to what Jesus says.

UBF believes that repentance is something that is not needed for church leaders. If their work is "successful" enough, they are already justified and do not need to repent. Jesus says: "But unless you repent, you too will all perish." That is something that UBF leaders never grasp, though they study these passages so often and threaten *others* with these passages so much.
6th-Dec-2005 01:32 am (UTC)
A great commentary! Much better than Jun’s interpretation. Jun should work on this commentary rather than memorizing Mr. Samuel Lee’s messages. Sin brings suffering. Sinners suffer because of their sin. Sinners suffer perishing from this world eternally unless they repent. We are as great sinners as they. We have much sin to repent of as they had to suffer for as sinners since sinners suffer from their sin and everybody is a sinner. As we are as great sinners as they were, we would suffer like them unless we repent. Therefore in view of the paragraphs 2 and 3, Matthew Henry doesn’t seem to say that this means that those Gallileans received God's judgement because of their sin. But he seems to say that we will suffer as sinners as they suffered as sinners--everyone is a sinner--unless we repent. He seems to be more interested in that sinners, those Gallileans and we alike since everyone is a sinner, suffer unless they repent than that they received God's judgement. His commentary seems to be more general than Jun's message is specific with Jun's having no specific ground to be so. But what is very clear here is that we, including Jun, Park, Kim and Chang, will all perish unless we repent.


3. On these stories he founded a call to repentance, adding to each of them this awakening word, Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish, v. 3-5. (1.) This intimates that we all deserve to perish as much as they did, and had we been dealt with according to our sins, according to the iniquity of our holy things, our blood had been long ere this mingled with our sacrifices by the justice of God. It must moderate our censure, not only that we are sinners, but that we are as great sinners as they, have as much sin to repent of as they had to suffer for. (2.) That therefore we are all concerned to repent, to be sorry for what we have done amiss, and to do so no more. The judgments of God upon others are loud calls to us to repent. See how Christ improved every thing for the pressing of that great duty which he came not only to gain room for, and give hopes to, but to enjoin upon us--and that is, to repent. (3.) That repentance is the way to escape perishing, and it is a sure way: so iniquity shall not be your ruin, but upon no other terms. (4.) That, if we repent not, we shall certainly perish, as others have done before us. Some lay an emphasis upon the word likewise, and apply it to the destruction that was coming upon the people of the Jews, and particularly upon Jerusalem, who were destroyed by the Romans at the time of their passover, and so, like the Galileans, they had their blood mingled with their sacrifices; and many of them, both in Jerusalem and in other places, were destroyed by the fall of walls and buildings which were battered down about their ears, as those that died by the fall of the tower of Siloam. But certainly it looks further; except we repent, we shall perish eternally, as they perished out of this world. The same Jesus that calls us to repent because the kingdom of heaven is at hand, bids us repent because otherwise we shall perish; so that he has set before us life and death, good and evil, and put us to our choice. (5.) The perishing of those in their impenitency who have been most harsh and severe in judging others will be in a particular manner aggravated.
6th-Dec-2005 04:08 am (UTC)
UBF believes that repentance is something that is not needed for church leaders.

True and it is very sad and very serious. And because the leaders do not accept the message of repentance for themselves, there can be no change in UBF, because there is no change in their hearts.



5th-Dec-2005 10:18 pm (UTC) - contradictions in teachings
Hi,

If we carefully read ubf manuscripts, we can find a zillion contradictions in their teachings. One week they will overstress one certain point of the passage, and the next week they may overstress the message in the exact opposite way. For example, one week they say that all those who reject the ubf invitations are lost sheep who don't know any better, but the ubfins must cry many tears for them and invite them again, because God cries many tears for them and longs for them to come back to Him. The next week they say that anyone who declines a ubf invitation is a goat who is going to burn in Hell for rejecting ubf, and we should not give them any pity or concern whatsoever, and God is just relishing the time He will send them to Hell. This is the sad state of the ubf 'Bible' teachings. It is an unavoidable consequence of not having any legitimate background in Bible study.

It also reflects the bipolar and schizophrenic nature of the ubf and many ubf adherents. The problem is they do not know the Bible in the correct ways, but use the Bible in twisted and perverse ways. I believe there is no greater harm than teaching the Bible in the wrong ways. And I beleive the ubf, thru its leaders, is guilty of this without question.
5th-Dec-2005 10:39 pm (UTC) - conclusion
Sorry, but got cut off before leaving my concluding thoughts and rhetorical question.

Human started this with questions about John Jun's interpretations of a certain passage. It is obvious that Jun made false interpretations, thus he would probably follow with false applications. Remember how ubf makes the interpretation then the application for everyone.

If this is so, did he do this out of ignorance, by accident, or on purpose? My thesis would be that for the most part, ubf message writers are doing this on purpose. I believe that their time of message writing is not the time they meditate on the Bible passage and listen to what the Bible says. I believe they already have certain issues that they want to insert into the message for the week. When they deliver their 'message', they simply pour out ubfisms and code messages that are meant to steer the herd into one single direction.

For example, when Daniel Rhee wrote his message to denounce Mr. Oh, who left ubf, Mr. Rhee twisted the passage about 'remain in Jesus' to apply to only one person and one event, and that was Mr. Oh who probably caused a huge stir by leaving the ubf that week. Is it possible that the passage 'remain in Jesus' could not apply to anything greater than one person who left ubf and caused a stir? Not to Mr. Rhee. That was the whole point, to discredit Mr. Oh and justify Mr. Rhee, who basically had sinned greatly but was the ubf leader still. This is just one example. I could probably think of a thousand times that EE Chang Woo did this exact same process. For example, the person who was in the car wreck and only his/her head was alive. What did that have to do with any Bible passage?

I think the ubf message writers focus totally on their position and about ubf business, and basically never receive anything from their time when they are supposed to be meditating on God's Word.

What do you think?

5th-Dec-2005 10:53 pm (UTC) - Re: conclusion
I agree 100%.
6th-Dec-2005 12:00 am (UTC) - Re: conclusion
Absolute power of a pastor in Korea

It seems that enforcing the absolute obedience to a church leader is not the unique feature of UBF. According to the article from one of the leading Korean newspapers, the absolute obedience to a church leader seems to be the unique feature of many Korean churches.

The article says that Pastor Jun runs an organization that helps other Korean pastors with church administration. Near the end of the article, it says that Pastor Jun told his audiences in a conference that a pastor must implement the absolute authority in his church. Using his example he brags that more than 70% of his church members are ready to die for him. He brags about his absolute power over them with this example. He shows them only one finger and says, “I see five fingers.” Then all of his church members will agree with him and say, “Yes you are right. We also see five fingers too.” He says that all his church members do not have their own opinions. His opinion on everything is accepted as their own opinion. He says that a pastor must become God to his church members. The main focus of a pastor’s ministry must be making a church member his own devotee. He says that one way to find out whether or not a female member has become his own devotee is to ask her to take off her underware, not because he has any evil intention but just to find out if she obeys him. If she obeys, then she has become his real follower. If she doesn’t obey, she is nothing! Everyone in the audience exclaimed “Amen!” at this.

I never knew this was practiced in any Korean church until now! The main focus of a pastor’s ministry must be making a church member his own devotee. Isn’t this what Mr. Samuel Lee, Peter Chang, John Jun are trying to do? It is not surprising that all UBF messages written by them are trash. The main focus of their messages is to make their members worshipers of their UBF system but not worshipers of God.
6th-Dec-2005 04:15 am (UTC) - Re: conclusion
A few questions arise in my head regarding this article. (Sorry, my Korean is less than minimal at this point.) What's the tone of this newspaper article? Is the article meant to be an expose of a cult(ish) leader or just reporting? Is this Pastor Jun considered a cult leader by the "mainstream" Korean churches with his obviously cultic ideas? How wide is his influence among them?
6th-Dec-2005 05:58 am (UTC) - Re: conclusion
I am sorry but I don't seem to be able to find any good information in English about his ministry. The pastor’s name is Jun, Kwang-Hun or something like that. He says that the puritan spirit was what has made the United States the only superpower nation. That is why he preaches that we need new spiritual leaders trained based on the new puritan spirit. He says that we need especially spiritual leaders, trained and prepared leaders. His organization is called New Puritan Spirituality Training Center. Their programs look very similar to UBF programs. I wonder if the pastor had any previous association with UBF movement. He sounds very like UBF. He seems to be very popular among many Korean pastors. He seems to have spiritual charisma. I think many Korean people like charismatic leaders. I don’t know why. Many charismatic Korean leaders did more damage than good through Korean history. But the news article is very critical of him. It doesn't seem to picture him as a cult leader. But it says that the conference was not like any normal Christian conference. It also seems to criticize the outrageousness of Korean Christianlity as a whole.

The news article also talks about how Korean senior pastors abuse their assistant pastors by treating them like their slaves making them run all kinds of errands for them and their wives. It also talks about the power of “microphone”. Since a senior pastor has the monopoly of the church microphone to deliver messages every Sunday, he has the power to control church opinions. It is like a dictator’s controlling a country by controlling news media. If he doesn’t like something about anyone, he pictures the person negatively during his message. Since he is the senior pastor, most church members believe whatever he says during his message. So the senior has the power to make anyone a spiritual criminal in the church. In this way, he controls anyone including assistant pastors so that they may obey him.
6th-Dec-2005 07:07 pm (UTC) - disrobing
This phenomena of testing a young lady by asking her to disrobe is not something that was practiced by the Puritans. That pastor is a pervert and a power monger. But, his actions are similar to what EE Chang Woo did numerous times in Chicago.

EE administered 'diet training' to several young women he deemed overweight. They were to report to his office frequently for weigh ins, at which time they stripped down to thier undies to be wighed. I know of three women for sure who got the disrobing treatment, and one more who I'm unsure.

Another EE tactic was to give the annual flu shot to women, not in the arm but in the tushie. I have been told by medical professionals that the flu shot is normally an arm shot, not a tushie shot. I know of two women who showed some of their backside, and two others who refused EE's demand for tushie shot. And let me add that I was not actually in the gossip loop, so for me to hear about the four cases meant it was probably a rampant practice in Chicago ubf.

For both scenarios, the best explanation is to exercise control over the true devotees of the cult of EE Chang Woo.

Beyond that, there are the stories of EE's adultery with various Korean 'missionary' women. The oldest one goes all the way back to the days of pioneering Kwang Ju. I suspect this new Puritan pastor has numerous scandals and skeletons in his closet.

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