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If you don't like how we do it, you can go?? 
16th-Jun-2006 10:13 am
We discussed briefly the problem with Kiev UBF and its director Dr. Peter Kim. When one of the member of the Kiev UBF confronted Dr. Peter Kim with problems in his organization, Dr. Peter Kim said to the member, “If you don't like how we do it, you can go.” The more I think about his blunt answer, I cannot but help doubting the integrity of Dr. Peter Kim as a spiritual leader.


“The ex UBF member (from Kiev) wrote that he got disturbed about many problems in UBF. So he compiled a list with the most irritating things which were going on there, and he asked the leader to speak with him about this list of issues. The leader refused to even look at the list, but answered: "If you don't like how we do it, you can go." So he left. But it shows again that UBF leaders do not even want to know about grievances in their church or their own leadership, not to speak of *changing* anything.”
16th-Jun-2006 05:32 pm (UTC)
First of all, what is the reasoning behind Dr. Peter Kim’s answer, "If you don't like how we do it, you can go"? His reasoning is that if one does not like something about an organization, he should just leave the organization but the leave the organization alone. Is this reasoning acceptable?

Consider, for example, an organization smuggles drugs and distributes them among teenagers. Most parents will not like how the organization does its business. But should we parents just leave the organization alone even though we do not like how it does the business? Again for example if a customer visits a restaurant and finds out that the restaurant operates without good sanitary codes for the employees, should the customer just leave the restaurant alone without confronting its management team with the problem even though he doesn’t like how they operates the restaurant?

There are many instances where Dr. Peter Kim’s reasoning, "If you don't like how we do it, you can go", would not work. In fact there are many instances where Dr. Peter Kim’s reasoning would sound very foolish. If Dr. Peter Kim insists on his reasoning, "If you don't like how we do it, you can go", our society would quickly fall into chaos. If Dr. Peter Kim’s reasoning is applied to every day person-to-person business, a parent should leave his child alone when the child accesses pornographic website even though he doesn’t like how his child does it. I am sure Dr. Peter Kim would not leave his children alone when he finds out that his children are using internet in a wicked way.

If Dr. Peter Kim lives according to his own reasoning, "If you don't like how we do it, you can go", he should never change the names of his Ukrainian sheep. I heard a story that Dr. Peter Kim changed the name of one of his sheep to “Point”. Dr. Peter Kim should have left the name of his sheep alone as it was even though he did not like it because according to Dr. Peter Kim’s own reasoning, if he doesn’t like it, he just leave him. He claimed that he found two fundamental problems of the people of Ukraine. Well again, he should just leave Ukraine if he doesn’t like how the people of Ukraine do it.

Dr. Peter Kim’s reasoning is not appropriate to be used in the case where one of his Ukrainian sheep confronted him with the problems existing in his organization. Dr. Peter Kim does not have the spiritual quality and integrity to handle the problems in his organization even at the level of common sense. Dr. Peter Kim is just another religious politician whom we can find many in UBF organization.
16th-Jun-2006 07:41 pm (UTC)
human12, you're right, this is completely inacceptable. Even more so since the person who dared to speak critical was not a notorious bellyacher, but somebody who had engaged a lot for UBF. He surely had not deserved such an answer. But anyway, this answer is not unusual from a UBF leader. I remember one member of my chapter did not really like the use of the titles "shepherd" and "missionary." He mentioned this to David Kim, one of the top leader in Korea UBF, who visited our chapter. The short reply of David Kim was the same: "Ok. You can leave if you don't like it." In this way they also get rid of people who are critical and who they feel cannot be controlled completely anyway. They cannot use people with a critical mind who dare to question UBF dogmas.
17th-Jun-2006 12:47 pm (UTC)
Andrew, who left Kiev UBF 4 years ago, gives some insights into what is going on in Kiev UBF, by compiling a list of “abnormal” things he experienced during his membership. He asked his discussion partner, another Kiev UBF member, who is still in UBF and tried to defend UBF in the discussion, to comment these things and admit they are true and how he thinks about these. Of course, he did not get a comment about any of these concrete issues.

To understand the situation in Kiev: The members are usually much younger than in Germany because of the different school system and military service. Some are still like children when they get the prey of UBF. Also, they come from the background of the former Soviet Union, where people were not accustomed to critically challenge a system, and were naive and uneducated in many regards, due to the one-sided propaganda. Particularly, they had no religious education and could not compare UBF with normal evangelical churches. They are also usually very poor, living away from their parents and their home in the country-side, sharing a very small UBF common life appartment with 5 or 6 other students and 500 cockroaches. The group dynamics and pressure is very high. Everybody fears the strong, authoritarian leader who would often publicly insult people in meetings.
17th-Jun-2006 12:51 pm (UTC)
I decided to translate the issues he mentions, because they once again affirm that UBF abuse is the same everywhere in the world:

* Andrew and his elder brother Ivan were down with influenza and temperature above 39C. Yet, they were commanded to attend a meeting. Ivan did not attend the meeting, therefore his wedding was postponed. Andrew – being younger and not so courageous to decline – attended the meeting that lasted after midnight when there was scarce public transport. After that, he got a sever pneumonia and later bronchitis, which healed completely only after leaving UBF, because in UBF he had never enough time to rest and recover.
* Andrey said the leader propagated wrong information about me and my wife (who was from Kiev) after we left UBF, in order to put us in a bad light
* Before conferences, they had 15 different meetings a week in Kiev (in Heidelberg, it was similar, by the way) where they had to come to the center
* The leader ordered some to run to the station, singing songs. Those who refused to run were kicked out.
* Those who came late to the meetings were ordered to buy food for the others (which is costly and time-consuming in Kiev)
* Those who wanted to visit their parents in the summer holidays were publicly dispraised
* It was not allowed to date or to marry without approval of the pastor
* Those members who attended other churches in Kiev were considered “lost sheep”
* You could not be in a good standing with UBF without attending *all* meetings
* One shepherdess was told to come to a meeting, although she had fever and her infant at home
* When the wife of the leader left the hospital in order to attend a UBF meeting, though she was on a drip, this was presented as exemplary behavior
* If you leave Kiev and visit another church in another town, you are denounced by the leader
* For those who lived in “common life” apartments it was mandatory to attend the early morning meeting at 6:30am in the center
* Those who are not active in the church are regularly criticized in public
* The leader blamed the members with the words “even my children (3 and 10 years old) are giving more tithes than you do”
* The members are told to obey *everything* the leader commands, even if it seems to be false
* Every week you need to write a “sogam” with a list of your own problems and application of the Bible to your life, and have to share it in public. Those who do not write are publicly denounced.
* UBF exerts “training” for “spiritual education”. Some demands of these trainings are given as if they came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ directly. Only God can demand such things from others.
* In Kiev, one of the trainings was to hold a chair over the head (even the person who was defending UBF in that discussion was among the people who were trained that way).
* If you missed the early morning meetings, sometimes money was collected as a punitive measure.
* The leader regularly said “we are the disciples of Jesus Christ, we are more similar to the first church, in other churches the people compromise”
* You were not allowed to miss the many meetings during the preparation phase for the conferences.
* The leader said “I regret having founded the marriage of Ivan and Ira”

I can also add another story I was told by another ex Kiev UBF member. He once missed the Sunday service, because he drove to another town. When he came back, he was kicked out of his home (a UBF “brothers’ common life” apartment) by the leader (though the leader of course was not even living in that apartment), and he had to spend the night in the railway station. That happened in winter.
17th-Jun-2006 01:03 pm (UTC)
* The leader regularly said “we are the disciples of Jesus Christ, we are more similar to the first church, in other churches the people compromise”

I am sure that Dr. Peter Kim must have studied the Bible so deeply that he copied all his "divine" training programs directly from Jesus' "divine" trainings such as "storm training". Dr. Peter Kim is also very kind and spiritual enough that he will say to you, "If you don't like how "I" do it, you can go."
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