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UBF Obedience 
21st-Aug-2006 11:25 pm
“Obedience” is a big theme in UBF indoctrination. I found a recent post regarding UBF obedience on the open counseling website of Korean UBF. The UBF theology of obedience is very closely tied to humbleness and proudness. This thread of discussion on UBF obedience clearly proves how UBF misinterprets the Bible and abuses biblical teaching for successful UBF business operation.
Comments 
22nd-Aug-2006 04:28 am (UTC) - post 1392
Post 1392 by a young shepherd (어린목자)on 2006/08/22

아랫글에서 순종에 대해 물어본 어린목자입니다^^
목자님의 글에 감사합니다.
그런데 저희 목자님은 이해가 되고 납득이 되는 것을 순종하는 것은 순종이 아니라고 하십니다.
지금은 이야기 해 줄수 없지만 이해할 수 없는 것을 순종하는게 진정한 순종이라고 말씀하십니다.
그래서 제가 도대체 왜 그런 방향을 주시냐고 물어봐도 절대 대답을 해 주시지 않습니다.
그래서 저도 답답합니다ㅠ-ㅠ
그냥 무조건 순종해야 하나요?


I am the young shepherd who asked a question about obedience in post 1386. Thank you so much for your answer in post 1385 (This is posted by the UBF staff shepherd Spener Lee) However, my shepherd is telling me that it is not true obedience if I only obey what makes sense to me. My shepherd tells me that it is true obedience if I can obey what does not make sense to me at the moment. So even though I ask my shepherd to give me a reason why I should obey such an instruction, he/she never gives me an answer. I am really frustrated with this situation. Should I just obey my shepherd without asking any question in this situation?
22nd-Aug-2006 05:28 am (UTC) - post 1386
Post 1386 by a young shepherd (어린목자) on 2006/08/20

안녕하세요? 얼마전 글을 올려놓고 많은 목자님들의 은혜로운 글과 위로글로 많은 힘을 얻은 어린목자입니다^^
제가 하나 궁금한 점은요~순종이에요..
목자님들은 어떻게 순종하시나요?
음..물론 성경말씀은 순종하고자 투쟁하지만요.
이해안되고 때로는 화까지 내면서 말하시는 목자님의 방향에 순종하는게 너무 힘들어요.
순종을 해서 부딪혀야 되는 어려움이 힘든게 아니라
순종 자체가 힘이 들어요.
화를내시고 감정을 섞어서 방향을 주시는데 상처가 많이 되거든요~
근데 그 말씀에 순종하고싶지 않은...오기라고나 할까요?
목자님들도 사람이기 때문에 허물이 있을 것은 압니다.
그런데 어떻게 사람에게 순종을 하죠? 왜 사람에게 순종을 해야하죠?
이해도 안되고 심지어 감정을 섞어서 이야기 하시는데 순종하는것은
마치 이해도 안되는데 막대기 물어오는 강아지와 같은 심정입니다.
목자님들의 은혜롭고 분명한 방향이 되는 조언의 글을 부탁합니다.읽어주셔서 감사합니다!^^

Hi. I am a young shepherd who has been greatly encouraged by reading the recent graceful and encouraging posts by many shepherds. I have a question regarding obedience. How do you shepherds practice obedience? Of course I try to obey based on the Bible. However it is very difficult for me to obey my shepherd, who even becomes angry at me, when my shepherd tells me to obey something that does not make any sense. I am not talking about the difficulties that I have to face if I have to obey my shepherd. I am saying that obeying my shepherd itself is very difficult for me. It really hurts me when my shepherd gives me a direction with explicit anger and bitterness. Then I guess I don’t want to obey my shepherd to preserve my dignity as a human being? I understand that even shepherds are not perfect. But how can I obey a man? Why should I obey a mere man? When my shepherd asks me to obey with anger and bitterness something that doesn’t make sense to me, I feel like I have been degraded to a dog which is asked to run after a stick thrown by its owner. I would appreciate any graceful and clear answer to my question. Thank you for reading.
22nd-Aug-2006 05:57 am (UTC) - post 1385 by Spener Lee, (이스페너)
Post 1385 by the UBF staff shepherd, Spener Lee (이스페너), on 2006/08/21

제가 볼 때는 서로 대화가 필요한 것 같습니다. 목자님이 화를 내면서 순종을 요구하신다고 하는 것을 보면 '어린 목자'님이 잘 알지 못하지만 목자님이 볼 때는 화가 날만한 것이 있나 봅니다. 꼭 이 문제뿐만 아니라 다른 문제에 대해서도 목자님과 충분히 대화를 나누는 것이 중요하고 필요합니다. 목자님 앞에서는 '예'하고 돌아서서 납득하기 어려워서 고생하는 것은 좋지 않습니다. 충분히 이해가 될 때까지 대화를 하시는 것이 중요합니다. 목자님의 생각은 무엇인지, 나의 생각은 무엇인지, 왜 그와 같은 말씀을 하시는지, 이해가 될 때가 대화를 하셔야 합니다. 심지어는 목자님과 언쟁을 벌이셔도 좋습니다. 과정은 좀 힘들 수 있지만 그렇게 할 때 서로 더 잘 알게 되고 관계성도 좋아집니다. 그러나 그렇게 해서 납득이 되었으면 절대적으로 순종해야 합니다. 순종을 통해서만 얻을 수 있는 많은 유익을 얻을 수 있을 것입니다. 저도 양들을 도우면서 제일 답답한 경우는 자기 생각을 말하지 않는 경우입니다. 그래서 이해가 되었나보다라고 생각했는데 나중에 행동하는 것을 보면, 전혀 그렇지 않다는 것을 알게 될 때, 답답합니다. 충분히 대화를 하세요.

It seems to me that you and your shepherd need to have better communication. ‘Young shepherd’, you say that your shepherd asks you to obey him/her with anger and bitterness. But it may be the case that your shepherd has a good reason to be angry with you even though you don’t understand the reason at this point. It is very important and necessary that you and your shepherd have a good communication not only on this particular matter but on every matter. You need to have talk with your shepherd until you understand him fully. You have to talk to him until you understand your shepherd; until you have made yourself understood by your shepherd; until you understand why your shepherd gives you such direction; even if doing so leads to a quarrel. Quarreling could hurt each other. But it can work so that both of you can understand each other better and have a better relationship. But when you understand your shepherd clearly through this process, you must obey your shepherd absolutely. There are many benefits that come only through obeying your shepherd. Whenever my sheep do not express their opinion to me, I also become very frustrated in helping them. Sometimes I think they understand me. But I feel so frustrated to find that it is not the case because they do not act according to my expectation. So please have enough discussion.
23rd-Aug-2006 07:08 pm (UTC) - Re: post 1385 by Spener Lee, (이스페너)
But when you understand your shepherd clearly through this process, you must obey your shepherd absolutely.

It's good when they reveal their teachings in public. But so far there is no website in English where they admit these teachings. Brian Karcher's website is different, he tries to downplay or even deny (there are no arranged marriages etc.).

By the way, the real teachings are even more extreme. While Spener Lee says "If you understand you shepherd clearly, you need to obey absolutely", Kaleb Hong tought us "Though you may not understand your shepherd at all, you need to obey absolutely. I still have one of his sermons in German where he deduced that from Luke 9:46-48. This sermon was a master piece of Bible twisting. In the sermon, he interpreted "this little child" as Samuel Lee, and "welcome somebody" as "not criticize, but obey somebody." So from the sentence "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me" he concluded "Whoever obeys Samuel Lee - though you may not understand his actions - obeys Jesus Christ." That's no joke. (He did not name Samuel Lee, but it was a clear allusion. He delivered that sermon in the hot phase of reform.)
23rd-Aug-2006 09:55 pm (UTC) - Re: post 1385 by Spener Lee, (이스페너)
In post 1392, the frustrated young shepherd writes the following:

"However, my shepherd is telling me that it is not true obedience if I only obey what makes sense to me. My shepherd tells me that it is true obedience if I can obey what does not make sense to me at the moment. So even though I ask my shepherd to give me a reason why I should obey such an instruction, he/she never gives me an answer."

In UBF "true" obedience is "blind" obedience like a dog running after a stick thrown by its owner at the owner's command. If the dog ever asks the owner "why?", the dog becomes a proud sinner in UBF. In fact there is a training called dead dog training in UBF.
25th-Aug-2006 12:52 am (UTC) - Re: post 1385 by Spener Lee, (이스페너)
But when you understand your shepherd clearly through this process, you must obey your shepherd absolutely.

This is exactly what Isaac Kim wanted from 1:1 meetings in the summer of 2004. During our 1:1 study, I talked to him about the unbiblical the 'humbleness' training he imposed on me. He seemed to listen and understand me. However, he would always argue that I needed to be trained and should understand why he trained me. HIs ultimate goal was to bring me to a point in which I would obey him absolutely. I continued to firmly state that his training was wrong and that the spiritual order he wanted to impose was unbiblical.
I would not obey him absolutely.

When Isaac realized that I would not obey him absolutely, he told me that I was worshipping my own Christ. Then, I realized that I either had to obey Isaac Kim as God or leave.
25th-Aug-2006 03:56 am (UTC) - Re: post 1385 by Spener Lee, (이스페너)
you must obey your shepherd absolutely

What is more terrifying is that Spener Lee doesn't seem to have any doubt about his own thesis of you must obey your shepherd absolutely. He does not even use a Bible passage to support his thesis. Where does he get such idea? In other posts, Spener Lee metions a lot about UBF tradition. I think that Spener Lee gets such unbiblical ideas from UBF tradition but not from the Bible. Spener Lee, as a UBF staff shepherd, seems to be more interested in preseving UBF tradition set by Samuel Lee rather than teaching the truth of God to his sheep.
28th-Aug-2006 09:22 pm (UTC) - Asking To See Evidence in Scripture is Rebellion in UBF
"He does not even use a Bible passage to support his thesis."

When I asked Isaac and Rebekah Kim to provide evidence in scripture for their directions and rebukes, they responded that this revealed my pride. They said that I must learn to obey them without asking questions. They define pride as wanting to follow the scripture instead of their words.
25th-Aug-2006 12:57 am (UTC) - Re: post 1385 by Spener Lee, (이스페너)
"‘Young shepherd’, you say that your shepherd asks you to obey him/her with anger and bitterness. But it may be the case that your shepherd has a good reason to be angry with you even though you don’t understand the reason at this point."

UBF leaders continue to blame the victim. If your shepherd is angry, it must be your fault. By contrast, when a sheep is angry with his shepherd, he is proud and rebellious no matter how good the reason for the sheep's anger.
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